Mi ne uzados la pronomon ri ĝis Akademio de Esperanto akceptos ĝin.

robinvdv:

novatago:Mi memorigas al ĉiu ke la plejmulto el la uloj kiuj enkondukis tiujn proponaĉojn, tute ne zorgos pri Esperanto post 10 jaroj.

Ĝis, Novatago (blogo / 7 + 1)

Kia malrespekta reago. Kelkaj homoj bezonas ĉi tiajn sekse neŭtralajn vortojn por paroli pri neduumaj personoj. Kiel vi proponas paroli sekse neŭtrale pri neduumaj personoj?

Aldone al tio, neniel plu temas pri proponoj. Proponoj kaj malrekomenditaj lingvaĵoj estas indikitaj per steletoj en PMEG. Ĉe ĉi tiuj vortoj ne plu aperas tiaj steletoj. La pronomo "ri" kaj la sufikso "IĈ" estis proponoj en la jaro 1976. Nun ili simple estas parto de la lingvouzado.

I'm not going to speak in Esperanto with you because you think that Esperanto it's not good enough or just doesn't work. Choose a language... Spanish, French, English.

abc_vz:Mi ne uzados la pronomon ri ĝis Akademio de Esperanto akceptos ĝin.

La Akademio de Esperanto ne oficialigos ajnan vorton antaŭ ol ĝi estas vaste uzata.

novatago:I'm not going to speak in Esperanto with you because you think that Esperanto it's not good enough or just doesn't work. Choose a language... Spanish, French, English.

If you can't speak Esperanto well enough to discuss with me, I am also ready to respond in English this time. I speak both languages fluently.

It is a fact that traditional Esperanto doesn't provide a way to talk about non-binary people. I know a lot of non-binary people and they are important in my life, that is why I need a way to talk about them. This is why some people propose neologisms to talk about gender-neutral family relations. I am happy that PMEG now acknowledges this lack of words and talks about the neologisms that some people proposed.

The Foundation of Esperanto (Fundamento de Esperanto) allows the adaptation of neologisms in cases when the official vocabulary is not enough. This is now clearly the case: there is no way to say "parent" or "sibling" in traditional Esperanto.

Your narrow-minded hate towards non-binary people that only want to define themselves in Esperanto is terrible.

robinvdv:
Your narrow-minded hate towards non-binary people that only want to define themselves in Esperanto is terrible.

It is neither narrow-mindedness nor hate to simply object to unofficial grammatical constructions. No people were attacked (or even mentioned) in abc_vz's post.

MiMalamasLaAnglan:It is neither narrow-mindedness nor hate to simply object to unofficial grammatical constructions. No people were attacked (or even mentioned) in abc_vz's post.

I didn't respond to abc_vz. I responded to novatago, who seems to be implying that non-binary people are not allowed to speak Esperanto and that people aren't allowed to speak about non-binary people in Esperanto.

novatago:I'm not going to speak in Esperanto with you because you think that Esperanto it's not good enough or just doesn't work. Choose a language... Spanish, French, English.

Bueno, podemos hablar en castellano.

Este tema del lenguaje inclusivo no solo existe en Esperanto, sino en casi todas la lenguas con muches hablantes. En castellano ahora existe la solución con la "-e", que a mí me encanta. Como vivo en Alemania, no uso castellano mucho, pero ya usé el castellano inclusivo con mi hermane y su novie, y sé que hay más y más personan que lo usan regulamente.

robinvdv:
I didn't respond to abc_vz. I responded to novatago, who seems to be implying that non-binary people are not allowed to speak Esperanto and that people aren't allowed to speak about non-binary people in Esperanto.

Well, novatago has the same reasoning as abc_vz, which is that unofficial grammatical reforms should not necessarily be used.

The idea of being non-binary was invented in the last few years, much more recently than Esperanto and almost every other language, so it's not a surprise that there's no way to explain it. Also, first- and second-person pronouns do not change for gender, so the idea that "non-binary people are not allowed to speak Esperanto" is false.

People are much, much, much more than just their gender.

robinvdv:
If you can't speak Esperanto well enough to discuss with me, I am also ready to respond in English this time. I speak both languages fluently.

Well, a childish attitude it's not going to help here.

robinvdv:It is a fact that traditional Esperanto doesn't provide a way to talk about non-binary people.

Well, this is not true. Esperanto has female, male, and neutral genders. All I need to know about non-binaries is that they say they aren't nor male, nor female. For this case "ĝi" works perfectly. The thing about feeling offended is a personal election. In Esperanto grammar there is nothing about using "ĝi" to offend people. And anyway, "ri" can be used to offend and to mock people. So accept it, this is not a reason to discard the use of "ĝi". This is not going change anything for non-binaries.

robinvdv:I know a lot of non-binary people and they are important in my life, that is why I need a way to talk about them.

So you know them, but you don't know me and that's why you need to try to insult me just because I think different. Ok...

Anyway, they are seeing a dimension and an importance to grammatical gender that doesn't exist. "Li" and the other pronouns, and its equivalents in the languages I know, doesn't define people as person, at all. In Spanish and French things can have both male and female grammatical gender and nobody feels offended because of this.

And to feel offended doesn't imply that they are right. In this case, that only means that they decide arbitrarily when something is offending. And, believe me, that attitude is not going help them a lot.

robinvdv:This is why some people propose neologisms to talk about gender-neutral family relations.

Is really good to propose neologisms when they are needed and they help.

"Ri" is no needed, it's just the open door to have a huge table with pronouns to learn for any arbitrary feeling.

"-iĉ" is no needed and it creates an irregularity even in the case "accepted" by PMEG. It is supposed to be the complement of "-ĉj" and "-in" but it can't be used in the same cases. It is supposed to make easier the grammar but people have to learn more to understand why "-iĉ" appears randomly and how to understand the genders not marked in texts when it not appears at all. They will need to know the date of the text and even so they will no have a guarantee on how to understand things. Esperanto wants to be easy to learn and this is not making it easier to learn.

robinvdv:I am happy that PMEG now acknowledges this lack of words and talks about the neologisms that some people proposed.

Well, you already have proven that all this thing is about lobby and making noise in internet: "If you don't accept this as a law I will accuse you of being a nazi and I will stop to breath to tell every you are trying to kill me". I don't think there is any other reason of including these things in PMEG. And anyway Bertilo makes mistakes as any other human. And the mention of a just now proposed suffix just show this.

robinvdv:Your narrow-minded hate towards non-binary people that only want to define themselves in Esperanto is terrible.

Yes, the narrow minded it's me but you with your large mind the first thing you made was to judge me just because you decide how to understand my words in a forum. I have nothing against non-binaries, but also I don't need to accept everything from everybody (and I must not to do it), specially to get your approval. Really, with people like you I don't need any Esperanto, with any ethnical language we can to not understand each other much easier.

I'm not going to participate in this question with you any more.

Ĝis, Novatago (blogo / 7 + 1)

Marcoscramer:

novatago:I'm not going to speak in Esperanto with you because you think that Esperanto it's not good enough or just doesn't work. Choose a language... Spanish, French, English.

Bueno, podemos hablar en castellano.

Este tema del lenguaje inclusivo no solo existe en Esperanto, sino en casi todas la lenguas con muches hablantes. En castellano ahora existe la solución con la "-e", que a mí me encanta. Como vivo en Alemania, no uso castellano mucho, pero ya usé el castellano inclusivo con mi hermane y su novie, y sé que hay más y más personan que lo usan regulamente.

Cierto, el tema del lenguaje inclusivo no solo existe en esperanto a pesar de que el hecho de que exista en esperanto demuestra lo arbitrario y contradictorio del tema: algunos nunca están contentos sin importar lo neutral que pueda ser un idioma.

Toda esa gente que defiende el uso de la letra "e" como terminación de género neutro, en resumen, el feminismo radical, solo demuestra ignorancia lingüística. Deciden arbitrariamente lo que es machista y lo que no (y para ello mienten). No saben que el género gramatical masculino español tiene un uso que se llama género no marcado, es decir, no solo indica género masculino. Pero lo peor de todo esto es que dicen que si no usamos su propuesta somos machistas y que el lenguaje normal nos hace machistas. Dicen eso sin saber que en turco todo es en género neutro y no creo que piensen que Turquía es un ejemplo de feminismo. En fin, ridículo.

Pero te voy a decir más, el uso de la terminación "e" no arregla nada porque en la actualidad solo lo usan dos tipos de personas, les feministes radicales y la gente que quiere reírse de elles. Por eso hay que entender que aceptar una propuesta no implica que el uso de esa propuesta vaya a cambiar una forma de pensar o que la gente la vaya a usar de la forma propuesta.

Lo más increíble de todo es que el feminismo radical dice estar defendiendo la libertad y la semana pasada sacaron de una biblioteca escolar de España un montón de libros, entre ellos La caperucita roja, por que dicen que son machistas. Me vas a disculpar si creo que son un peligro para la libertad y que no respetan los derechos humanos.

Un saludo, Novatago.

novatago:
And to feel offended doesn't imply that they are right. In this case, that only means that they decide arbitrarily when something is offending. And, believe me, that attitude is not going help them a lot.

robinvdv:This is why some people propose neologisms to talk about gender-neutral family relations.

Is really good to propose neologisms when they are needed and they help.

"Ri" is no needed, it's just the open door to have a huge table with pronouns to learn for any arbitrary feeling.

robinvdv:I am happy that PMEG now acknowledges this lack of words and talks about the neologisms that some people proposed.

Well, you already have proven that all this thing is about lobby and making noise in internet: "If you don't accept this as a law I will accuse you of being a nazi and I will stop to breath to tell every you are trying to kill me". I don't think there is any other reason of including these things in PMEG. And anyway Bertilo makes mistakes as any other human. And the mention of a just now proposed suffix just show this.

robinvdv:Your narrow-minded hate towards non-binary people that only want to define themselves in Esperanto is terrible.

Yes, the narrow minded it's me but you with your large mind the first thing you made was to judge me just because you decide how to understand my words in a forum. I have nothing against non-binaries, but also I don't need to accept everything from everybody (and I must not to do it), specially to get your approval. Really, with people like you I don't need any Esperanto, with any ethnical language we can to not understand each other much easier.

I'm not going to participate in this question with you any more.

Ĝis, Novatago (blogo / 7 + 1)

Krom se vi tute samopinias kun la neduumistoj, ili pensas, ke vi estas senvalora kaj mortiginda.