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Duolingo will help with reform!!!!

od 1Guy1, 31. mája 2015

Príspevky: 193

Jazyk: English

makis (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 21:20:14

novatago:
makis:That field day arrived much sooner than I thought it would... okulumo.gif
Yes this is really funny, 128 years of work are now going down through the toilet seat. There's a lot to celebrate.

Ĝis, Novatago.
Have you tried the course or read the thread in question?

jean-luc (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 21:23:49

novatago:
nornen:It is not like this phenomenon was unique to Duolingo... Lernu has had it for years and still has.
It's no the same, in Lernu there are trolls trying to cheat and impose their ideas. But Lernu teach real Esperanto grammar.
the Duolingo course doesn't teach neologisms (and not even touch the topic of the reforms), it barely widen the audience of esperanto. If you don't want the reformists (or whatever you call them) to takeover, you should go there, do the lessons, and participate in the forum to help beginners (without trolling)

novatago (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 21:33:02

makis:
novatago:
makis:That field day arrived much sooner than I thought it would... okulumo.gif
Yes this is really funny, 128 years of work are now going down through the toilet seat. There's a lot to celebrate.

Ĝis, Novatago.
Have you tried the course or read the thread in question?
I'm with that right now. Outrageous anyway.

leporinjo (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 21:45:20

Oh boy, here we go. I take responsibility for part of this.

Some new people on Duolingo have been saying things like, "I am a non-binary person and I was wondering how to identify myself in Esperanto." So there have been fair, rational discussions of things like Iĉismo, Riismo, etc., including advice (from cisgender men) that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.

I pointed out that Duolingo teaches Iismo, a reform which has never been made official. Originally coming from a purely anti-reform standpoint, I asked why Iismo (which is useless and kontraŭfundamenta) is part of the course, but not Riismo or Iĉismo? I pointed out the hypocrisy of allowing something like Iismo while running to the Fundamento as soon as someone brings up gender reform. This led to a reasonable, healthy discussion of topics such as privilege, sexism, etc.

I do not back down from the position I took, and actually, as more and more experienced, fluent, non-binary Esperantists (such as one of the authors of Egalecen) have been coming into the discussion and saying they are Riistoj, I have become a Riisto too. I base this purely on the fact that at least SOME non-binary people WANT to be called ri, so why not call them that?

I suppose if you have rational objections to any of this, you should get involved in the discussions on Facebook and Duolingo. If your point is valid, I am sure people will come around to it. Good luck!

jean-luc (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 21:56:44

leporinjo: that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.
La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known

leporinjo (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 21:59:48

jean-luc:
leporinjo: that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.
La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known
If that's the case then why are so many people just as dead sure as you are that the Fundamento says "tiu" or the Fundamento says "li"? Why does the current version of the PMEG completely disagree with you and say to use "li", if the Fundamento is clear on the topic? http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/pronomoj/tria.h... Interestingly, PMEG mentions "ri" as a proposal, but never mentions "ĝi" as a personal pronoun. I think you've just demonstrated my point.

Zamenhof hadn't even thought about the possibility of non-binary people in the late 1800s. What is happening is that people are desperately trying to find a solution in the Fundamento, and even spertuloj can't agree on what that solution is. Everyone is convinced there is a solution, but no one knows what it is.

nornen (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 22:03:55

jean-luc:
leporinjo: that non-binary people use pronouns like "ĝi", "tiu" and "li". This led to the obvious question: which one is it? Ĝi, tiu or li? No one could agree.
La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known
Which Fundamento? The Fundamento I know says:

Fundamento:La pli maljuna estis tiel simila al la patrino per sia karaktero kaj vizaĝo, ke ĉiu, kiu ŝin vidis, povis pensi, ke li vidas la patrinon;
Could you please point out the exact passages of the Fundamento which state that "ĝi" is to be used when a persons gender isn't known?

leporinjo (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 22:08:30

Non-binary people are not quite the same as "people of unknown sex." They are people who belong to a separate gender from men and women. You know what their gender is; they'll tell you what their gender is. If the Fundamento has a pronoun for such people, I'm all ears.

jean-luc (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 22:09:26

I don't know because la fundamento is perfectly clear: it gives the following example "La infano ploras, ĉar ĝi volas manĝi."

jean-luc (Zobraziť profil) 31. mája 2015 22:10:10

leporinjo:Non-binary people are not quite the same as "people of unknown sex." They are people who belong to a separate gender from men and women. If the Fundamento has a pronoun for such people, I'm all ears.
why would you need a third gender and not 3000 ?

Nahor