İçerik Görüntüleme

Suffix "ino"

başlangıç Ploppsy32, 14 Aralık 2019

Mesajlar: 159

Dil: English

Jxusteno (Profili görüntüle) 4 Ocak 2020 07:57:33

nornen:
ĉar la vorto "man" signifas ankaŭ "viro".
Ankaŭ la latina "homo" signifas kaj "persono" kaj "viro", dum "vir" signifas nur "viro" kaj "mulier" signifas nur "virino".

Homo sum, ni(hi)l humani a me alienum puto.
Homo mi estas, nenion humanan mi taksas fremda al mi.

En la latina "persona" signifas "(teatro)masko", ĉar la voĉo de la aktoro trasonas (lt: personat) ĝin. Ĉar helpe de malsamaj maskoj, la aktoroj rolis kiel malsamaj personoj, poste la vorto "persona" ekhavis la signifon "persono". Etimologie, persono estas masko, kiun ni surhavas en socio.
Eble homan, sed ne "humanan"?
Ja la Esperanta "homo" ne signifas "viro" sed estas seksneŭtrala.

nornen (Profili görüntüle) 4 Ocak 2020 16:35:17

Sendube. Mi gxustigis.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 14 Ocak 2020 01:08:17

Mesaj gizlendi.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 14 Ocak 2020 01:10:11

Mesaj gizlendi.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 14 Ocak 2020 01:11:14

@nornen
“Is Esperanto sex-biased? There are neutral roots (person), male roots (patr) and female roots (siren). No bias so far.”

When I looked up the translation of “siren” I found out it meant “virgin.” because this is a rare feminine based root in Esperanto, to me, it seems the language is implying that woman are sex objects. Why does “patr” a masculine root for “parents and “siren” a femine word for someone who has yet to have sex?


“You can indeed use "li" as a generic pronoun, which might constitute a bias. But you can argue in both ways: (A) It is biased in favour of the male, because the male pronoun can double as a generic pronoun. (B) It is biased in favour of the female, because there is an exclusively female pronoun, but no exclusively male pronoun, as you can use "li" in a generic way.”

I do not believe this is true. Z grew up in a time where women’s rights were not respected. Friedrich Nietzsche, a notable philosopher at that time said “God created woman. And indeed, that was the end of boredom- but other things too! Women was gods second mistake.” Z wound not make “li” gender-neutral and masculine to compliment women; he lived in a time period when women were considered things and objects or even mistakes.

nornen (Profili görüntüle) 14 Ocak 2020 06:12:52

When I looked up the translation of “siren” I found out it meant “virgin.”
I do not know, in which dictionary you looked it up, but "sireno" means "siren", not "virgin". For instance the Akademia Vortaro translates it thus:

sirène (myth.) siren Sirene syrena сирена

You might want to study Esperanto before judging it.
because this is a rare feminine based root in Esperanto, to me, it seems the language is implying that woman are sex objects
Maybe you are projecting yourself here. Even if siren' meant virgin, how does this imply, that women (that's the plural of woman) are sex objects?
someone who has yet to have sex
It is you and perhaps nobody else, who tells anyboby (be it a virgin or be it a mermaid) that they have to have sex. This is quite sexist.
I do not believe this is true.
And I am glad to read this. Everybody is entitled to their own believes.You should just make a clear distinction between believes and facts. The universe and reality don't give one wet fart about believes.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Taking quotes from Nietzsche out of context is so cliche. Have you actually read Nietzsche? For instance "Also sprach Zarathustra" or "Der Antichrist"? I am really excited to know the answer.
Z wound not make “li” gender-neutral
Please do read, I beg you, what Ĵusteno posted about "Ĉar ĉiu amas ordinare personon, kiu estas simila al li, tial tiu ĉi patrino varmege amis sian pli maljunan filinon, kaj en tiu sama tempo ŝi havis teruran malamon kontraŭ la pli juna.".

Once again, I am happy to hear, that you have your own believes, and that you wholeheartedly defend them. But, please, try to apply the method in order to test hypotheses. I am aware of the fact, that nowadays every single individual resides more and more inside their own filter-bubble and don't care about outside information, but maybe you, Ploppsy32, can break this vicious cycle.

Maybe you would want to read Ĵusteno's posts on this forum, as he argues more or less in the same direction as you do, albeit a lot more skillfully, and you might learn a thing or two from him about how to rationally and perhaps successfully push an agenda.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 15 Ocak 2020 21:46:08

This is my belief about the suffix "ino" so far.

The suffix "ino" is demeaning because it treats females like they are secondary. A mother is not a female father. Patrino implies this because the language takes the word "patro" and changes it into a female version. A mother is not a female father; a mother is a female parent. I feel like this goes for other words ending in "ino"

Am I wrong? I mean this sincerely.

Zam_franca (Profili görüntüle) 15 Ocak 2020 22:41:59

Ploppsy32:This is my belief about the suffix "ino" so far.

The suffix "ino" is demeaning because it treats females like they are secondary. A mother is not a female father. Patrino implies this because the language takes the word "patro" and changes it into a female version. A mother is not a female father; a mother is a female parent. I feel like this goes for other words ending in "ino"

Am I wrong? I mean this sincerely.
Ploppsy32:I never said that Esperanto aims to be a perfect language. Since language is a reflection of culture and culture is a way people live life and people are imperfect there is no perfect language.
As Nornen already told you, learning a language can be useful if you want to criticise it.

Apparently you do not know the exact meaning of "-in-". So https://lernu.net/gramatiko/sufiksoj :
IN
IN = "the sex capable of giving birth", female. The IN suffix can be used only for something that can have sex, namely a person or an animal. IN adds the meaning of being female (and removes the meaning of being male, as necessary).

IN is most frequently added to a word that has a masculine meaning. The word then changes to have a feminine meaning.

patro → patrino = a female human who has given birth to a child, a mother
viro → virino = an adult female human, a woman
knabo → knabino = a young female human, a girl
avo → avino = the mother of a father or mother, a grandmother
reĝo → reĝino = a woman who reigns the same way that a man does, the wife of a king, a queen
The IN suffix can also be added to a word that is gender-neutral, but that is done much less frequently. The gender-neutral word then changes to have a female meaning:

homo → homino = a female human
aŭtoro → aŭtorino = a female author
pasaĝero → pasaĝerino = a female passenger
besto → bestino = a female animal
mortinto → mortintino = a dead woman
With a neutral word, male gender can be shown by using the root VIR as a prefix or as an adjective.

There are several words that inherently indicate the female gender: damo (dame), nimfo (nymph), matrono (matron), putino (prostitute) (not a compound word!) and others. IN should not be added to this kind of word.
Compare to "vir-" https://lernu.net/gramatiko/afiksecaj_elementoj :
VIR
VIR is used as a prefix to show male sex. It can be compared with the suffix IN. VIR can therefore only be used with a root that can have a gender, and only with words that are not inherently male.

VIR is used as a prefix mainly for animal words: virĉevalo, virkato, virbovo, virhundido, virbesto.

VIR can also be used like a prefix on words for people: virhomo, virprezidanto, virsekretario. But VIR is normally used as an adjective for indicating people: vira homo, vira prezidanto, vira sekretario.

The root VIR, however, is sometimes left out even when a male animal or human is being referred to.

Note that the word viro (man), used independently, always means "adult male person", while VIR used as a prefix only shows the male sex (not a person being human, nor adult). The word vira (manly, related to men) sometimes only shows male sex and sometimes indicates that something is human or adult, depending on context.
"
The root VIR, however, is sometimes left out even when a male animal or human is being referred to.
"
This is not a problem. If you think that genre matters in the word you want to say, then say "virkato". I guess the ones who say "kato" instead of "virkato" are just influenced by their native language.
For instance I do not have the habit to say a word like "virkato" in French : it does not exist. There is "chat" which is both male and neutral. Also note that there is the word "chatte", which is female, but sometimes we just do not care about one cat's gender and we just say "chat" even if it a female.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 15 Ocak 2020 23:23:56

Mesaj gizlendi.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 15 Ocak 2020 23:24:25

Mesaj gizlendi.

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