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Suffix "ino"

başlangıç Ploppsy32, 14 Aralık 2019

Mesajlar: 159

Dil: English

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 14:57:39

Mesaj gizlendi.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 15:00:03

What's the big deal about changing the Fundamento? Language should be fluid and evolving. I feel that if we want to modernize Esperanto then we need to accept that since the Fundamento was made in the 19th century it, therefore, reflected the culture of the 19th century and is therefore outdated. There is nothing bad about changing the Fundamento to keep pace with modern society. You can compare it to America making changes to its constitution. Esperanto won't become another Volapuk, it will become an improved and modernized language.

robinvdv (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 15:14:46

Ploppsy32:Do any of you feel that having a pronoun for males that also functions as gender-neutral linguistically excludes women?
Yes, I agree with that. It also excludes non-binary people. That's why the pronoun "ri" (first proposed in 1979) is getting more and more accepted, especially between young and progressive Esperanto speakers in America and Europe. Nowadays the most accepted and respected grammar on the language, PMEG, doesn't recommend against its usage anymore. Nowdays it has its own section in the chapter on pronoun, where it gets explained.

More information:
* https://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/pronomoj/tria....
* http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/art/ri.html

Some conservatives, such as novatago, are vehemently against it though, out of a desire to keep the language "pure" and in line with traditions from the last century... But they are slowly becoming a minority, just like the people opposing singular "they" in English. Language is fluid: it evolves and changes. If speakers see the need for a new word in the language, that word will sooner or later become a widespread part of the language. It just takes time.

Zam_franca (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 15:39:06

If speakers see the need for a new word in the language...
You weren't talking about a new word, you were talking about a reform.
I'll always repeat this, please consider Esperanto as you consider Spanish, French, English, Russian... a language's grammar doesn't change like that. In French we say il (he) for an unknown, but it doesn't mean we're sexist. And because Esperanto, as French, is a real language, I don't see why we should accept reforms in Eo and not in other real languages...
someone_will_perhaps_answer:Esperanto aims being perfect
... But this is completely wrong.

In addition Ri is already used for the non-binary people. So it does not match either.

robinvdv (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 15:54:57

Zam_franca:
If speakers see the need for a new word in the language...
You weren't talking about a new word, you were talking about a reform.
I'll always repeat this, please consider Esperanto as you consider Spanish, French, English, Russian... a language's grammar doesn't change like that. In French we say il (he) for an unknown, but it doesn't mean we're sexist. And because Esperanto, as French, is a real language, I don't see why we should accept reforms in Eo and not in other real languages...
I do consider Esperanto just like English, Spanish, Swedish and French. Speakers of those languages are just like us discussing on gender-neutral pronouns. And in those language communities there are probably also a lot of conservatives against any changes for gender-neutrality and inclusivity.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they (English "they")
* https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen (Swedish "hen")
* https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elle_(pronombre) (Spanish "elle")
* https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binaire#Utilisat... (French "iel")

Adding a new word is not a reform, the Fundamento even explicitly allows the addition of new words.

Zam_franca (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 16:17:54

And in those language communities there are probably also a lot of conservatives against any changes for gender-neutrality and inclusivity.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binaire#Utilisat... (French "iel")
I've never heard someone using iel. I saw it only once, when I discovered the English they as a singular word, and when after that I made a few researches on the internet.
So there aren't
a lot of conservatives against any changes
but a lot of (actually a 99% majority I guess) people who never, as me, heard that word in a conversation!!!
In fact, I think iel mostly lives in Wikipedia and on the internet.

As I said,
In addition Ri is already used for the non-binary people. So it does not match either.
... So are you talking about a pronoun for non-binary people or a gender-neutral pronoun?? Or both?????

robinvdv (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 18:05:26

Zam_franca:I've never heard someone using iel. I saw it only once, when I discovered the English they as a singular word, and when after that I made a few researches on the internet.
So there aren't
a lot of conservatives against any changes
but a lot of (actually a 99% majority I guess) people who never, as me, heard that word in a conversation!!!
In fact, I think iel mostly lives in Wikipedia and on the internet.
I sorted my examples from most used to least used. The English "they" is widely used in all parts of society. The Swedish "hen" is widely known and officially accepted, but it's still not universally used. The Spanish "elle" isn't yet widely known, and it's mostly used in leftist, queer and feminist circles. A few days ago I read an article about how "elle" is gaining popularity in Argentina:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/12/05...

Zam_franca:As I said,
In addition Ri is already used for the non-binary people. So it does not match either.
... So are you talking about a pronoun for non-binary people or a gender-neutral pronoun?? Or both?????
Both, of course. A lot of non-binary people want that people speak about them in a gender-neutral way. That's why a lot of them use gender-neutral pronouns, like "ri".

Jxusteno (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 18:24:48

robinvdv:
Zam_franca:As I said,
In addition Ri is already used for the non-binary people. So it does not match either.
... So are you talking about a pronoun for non-binary people or a gender-neutral pronoun?? Or both?????
Both, of course. A lot of non-binary people want that people speak about them in a gender-neutral way. That's why a lot of them use gender-neutral pronouns, like "ri".
What do you think about using tiu/ties instead of ri/ria? In the Esperanto version of fb there is "tiu" in the lieu of the English singular They.

Metsis (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 18:47:36

Jxusteno:
What do you think about using tiu/ties instead of ri/ria? In the Esperanto version of fb there is "tiu" in the lieu of the English singular They.
Eh, there is other use for tiu, for instance:
 
  • Adamo vidis Sofian kaj ties aŭton.
Here you can't use sian, because it refers to the subject, so the car would be Adamo's (and the whole sentence would be awkward). Nor can you say ŝian, because that would imply some other woman's, not Sofia's, car. Tiu and its forms, here ties, refer to the lastly mentioned person, which very often is the object.

Ploppsy32 (Profili görüntüle) 18 Aralık 2019 19:46:26

What do you all think about words such as, virino, patrino, fratino, filino, etc...?

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