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Duolingo will help with reform!!!!

від 1Guy1, 31 травня 2015 р.

Повідомлення: 193

Мова: English

leporinjo (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:11:51

jean-luc:
leporinjo:Non-binary people are not quite the same as "people of unknown sex." They are people who belong to a separate gender from men and women. If the Fundamento has a pronoun for such people, I'm all ears.
why would you need a third gender and not 3000 ?
You should ask a non-binary person that; I'm not at all qualified to answer the question. I would never presume to know, nor to decide how non-binary people should call themselves. It's not for me to know or to decide. If even one non-binary person wants me to call them "ri," I will call them "ri."

jean-luc (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:13:35

leporinjo:You should ask a non-binary person that; I'm not at all qualified to answer the question. I would never presume to know, nor to decide how non-binary people should call themselves.
So I don't get your problem

leporinjo (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:16:19

jean-luc:
leporinjo:You should ask a non-binary person that; I'm not at all qualified to answer the question. I would never presume to know, nor to decide how non-binary people should call themselves.
So I don't get your problem
I'm sure you don't, but you don't have to know the reason for everything. The point is, non-binary people say there is a problem. From our position, we could not possibly say whether they have one or not. If they say there is a problem, we should be empathetic instead of bludgeoning them with what we think we know about the Fundamento, but can't even agree on amongst ourselves.

jean-luc (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:21:23

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I just show that a neutral pronoun already exists in experanto. If some special snowflakes aren't happy with that, I could not care less.

leporinjo (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:22:42

Good, then there's nothing to discuss.

Tempodivalse (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:50:59

I'm confused now. Is Duolingo teaching a nonstandard version of Esperanto or not? My chat with RC didn't indicate this...

Concerning gendered pronouns:

If the gender is unknown, then one normally uses li, as indicated in the Fundamento, where it is evident that li has two uses: 1) the male pronoun; and 2) the generic, sex-neutral animate pronoun (similar to "generic he" in English and Slavic languages, among others).

This doesn't work so well when talking about people who are non-binary, however, since the gender is not strictly "unknown" but rather "not male or female".

The obvious workaround is to use tiu. There might be ambiguities though, where it is not immediately clear if tiu is referring to a person, or some other referent mentioned in immediate context.

You could also use ghi, though this might be uncomfortable for some people because ghi is traditionally associated with inanimate objects or animals. However, you could also argue that it makes a reasonable "none of the above" pronoun, especially if precedent for such usage is established.

In any event I think we can find a solution without having to resort to eksterfundamentaj neologisms.

jean-luc (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:57:04

the only nonstandard esperanto I've seen people complain about is the ending in -io for countries. Funily the only people to complain, complain also duolingo doesn't teach other nonstandard esperanto

jean-luc (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:58:23

Tempodivalse:
If the gender is unknown, then one normally uses li, as indicated in the Fundamento,
can you give me a link to the fundamento part saying that because what I found inside says one should ĝxi

nornen (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 22:59:42

Is this what we are doing on lernu now? Discussing duolingo's forum discussions?
Maybe we should apply for the green recycling batch.

leporinjo (Переглянути профіль) 31 травня 2015 р. 23:04:43

I highly suggest that anyone who wants to be informed about the concerns non-binary people have with Esperanto, and the solutions they are finding, read this: https://egalecen.wordpress.com/2014/08/04/kial-igi...

I don't see how anyone could possibly claim the author of that article is an "eterna komencanto", as is so often baselessly leveled against "reformemuloj".

Here is further discussion of the same issue by an Akademiano: http://lingvakritiko.com/2014/10/16/esperanto-kaj-...

Furthermore, claiming it's "kontraŭfundamenta" to introduce new pronouns is a self-defeating argument, because the Fundamento goes ahead and introduces a new pronoun in the Fundamenta Ekzercaro.

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