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Grammar question

viết bởi Talking Pie, Ngày 11 tháng 8 năm 2006

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Nội dung: English

Talking Pie (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:04:47 Ngày 11 tháng 8 năm 2006

If anyone could help me with this, I'd be very grateful.

I basically just have a question about one word. Aŭskulti. 'To listen'. But does it double as the English 'to listen to'? That is, in Esperanto, could I say "mi aŭskultas muzikon", or would I have to say "mi aŭskultas al muziko" (and would I be correct in dropping the accusative case when 'al' is used?).

Also, if anyone else has any questions, maybe they could be posted here also? Just so I'm not making a thread just for one single question. I'd love to help speakers less experienced than me with the parts of the language that I do understand.

erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:15:53 Ngày 11 tháng 8 năm 2006

Talking Pie:If anyone could help me with this, I'd be very grateful.

I basically just have a question about one word. Aŭskulti. 'To listen'. But does it double as the English 'to listen to'? That is, in Esperanto, could I say "mi aŭskultas muzikon", or would I have to say "mi aŭskultas al muziko" (and would I be correct in dropping the accusative case when 'al' is used?).
It can also mean "to listen to", so you would definitely say "Mi aŭskultas muzikon"

But the word "al" can often be used instead of the -n ending, so I believe that "Mi aŭskultas al muziko" is grammatically correct (though it is one of those things that is grammatically correct but it's not the usual way to say something, so it sounds strange to experienced speakers).

Talking Pie (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:44:19 Ngày 11 tháng 8 năm 2006

Many thanks ridulo.gif

super-griek (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 11:52:09 Ngày 15 tháng 8 năm 2006

erinja:
Talking Pie:If anyone could help me with this, I'd be very grateful.

I basically just have a question about one word. Aŭskulti. 'To listen'. But does it double as the English 'to listen to'? That is, in Esperanto, could I say "mi aŭskultas muzikon", or would I have to say "mi aŭskultas al muziko" (and would I be correct in dropping the accusative case when 'al' is used?).
It can also mean "to listen to", so you would definitely say "Mi aŭskultas muzikon"

But the word "al" can often be used instead of the -n ending, so I believe that "Mi aŭskultas al muziko" is grammatically correct (though it is one of those things that is grammatically correct but it's not the usual way to say something, so it sounds strange to experienced speakers).
I haven't got that much experience with Esperanto (and not with English, either), but I think it is impossible to use 'al' with a thing (instead of a person), except when you want to talk about direction. So, laŭ mia opinio , the only possible ways you can say 'I listen to music' are 'mi aŭskultas muzikon', 'aŭskultas mi muzikon', 'muzikon mi aŭskultas' , etc.

I also have a question myself: when exactly does one use pli, and when plu? I'll write here what I already (think I) know:

Pli is used:

-In a comparison:
Mi estas pli forta ol vi.

Plu is used:

-In the combination ne... plu (not anymore).
Mi ne plu savas kion fari.

So, how does one say in Esperanto, for example:

-I have more books than you.
-I will give you more when you'll come back.
-Extra stuff
...

Multajn dankojn pro via atento kaj bonvoleco.

Kun sinceraj salutoj,

Andy 'Andreo' Peetermans, Belgujo.

erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:15:56 Ngày 15 tháng 8 năm 2006

super-griek:
I haven't got that much experience with Esperanto (and not with English, either), but I think it is impossible to use 'al' with a thing (instead of a person), except when you want to talk about direction.
This is more or less correct.

But in the case of listening to music - I would be inclined to judge that you could use "al" in this sense, since you are listening in the direction of the music.

It's somewhat tenuous, and it does sound weird. But I am not inclined to say that it's definitely grammatically wrong. In any case, "aŭskulti muzikon" would be the preferred form.
So, how does one say in Esperanto, for example:

-I have more books than you.
-I will give you more when you'll come back.
-Extra stuff
-"Mi havas pli da libroj ol vi"
-"Mi donos al vi pli kiam vi revenos"
This is in the case when it is understood that someone will be given more of the same thing. In this case, "pli" would refer to things that are given, "plu" would refer to the verb - the action of giving. So you might say "Mi plu donos al vi poste" - this would indicate that I will be giving again later, in addition to the "giving" action that I have already taken.

-"Extra stuff" - personally I am inclined not to use any form of "pli" or "plu" in the case of statements like this. I usually say "ceteraĵoj". But to translate more literally I would say "pli da aferoj"

Following is my translation of (part of) the PMEG's explanation of the word "plu":

PMEG:
"Plu" shows that an action or state does not stop, but continues.
"Mi plu amos vin ĝis la morto"

Sometimes "plu" shows continuation not only of time, but also of space.
"Ne haltu, iru plu!"

If "plu" is used together with a word negating something, it shows that the action or state does not continue. In this case, "plu" is used to emphasize that it was somehow supposed that the action would continue.
"Mi ne povas plu instrui vian filinon, sinjorino"

"Plu" and "pli" can sometimes be similar but there is a great basic difference. "Plu" is a word related to time (and place). "Pli" shows comparison and gradations of size. "Pli" can show time only if there is another time-related word in the sentence, or if one is understood.

Li rakontis plu = He continued his story
Li rakontis pli = He told about more things
Li ne vivos plu = He will not live anymore
Li ne vivos pli = He won't live longer than someone else will live

super-griek (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 09:26:19 Ngày 16 tháng 8 năm 2006

erinja:
super-griek:
I haven't got that much experience with Esperanto (and not with English, either), but I think it is impossible to use 'al' with a thing (instead of a person), except when you want to talk about direction.
This is more or less correct.

But in the case of listening to music - I would be inclined to judge that you could use "al" in this sense, since you are listening in the direction of the music.
That depends on your native tongue. People who, like me, speak Dutch, or, like most of you people, speak English, will think of listening as something with a direction. Indeed, we say 'luisteren naar', which corresponds directly with the English 'to listen to'. But the French-speaking, for example, say 'écouter la musique' (if I am correct), 'to listen music', which has nothing of a direction in it.
And as far as I know, Esperanto tends to work that way to, rather using an accusative than a prepositional object. But since you said that the accusative is better and should be preferred over 'al', there's no problem: I'd propose (like you) that we all use the accusative rido.gif .

erinja:
super-griek:
So, how does one say in Esperanto, for example:

-I have more books than you.
-I will give you more when you'll come back.
-Extra stuff
-"Mi havas pli da libroj ol vi"
-"Mi donos al vi pli kiam vi revenos"
This is in the case when it is understood that someone will be given more of the same thing. In this case, "pli" would refer to things that are given, "plu" would refer to the verb - the action of giving. So you might say "Mi plu donos al vi poste" - this would indicate that I will be giving again later, in addition to the "giving" action that I have already taken.

-"Extra stuff" - personally I am inclined not to use any form of "pli" or "plu" in the case of statements like this. I usually say "ceteraĵoj". But to translate more literally I would say "pli da aferoj"

Following is my translation of (part of) the PMEG's explanation of the word "plu":

PMEG:
"Plu" shows that an action or state does not stop, but continues.
"Mi plu amos vin ĝis la morto"

Sometimes "plu" shows continuation not only of time, but also of space.
"Ne haltu, iru plu!"

If "plu" is used together with a word negating something, it shows that the action or state does not continue. In this case, "plu" is used to emphasize that it was somehow supposed that the action would continue.
"Mi ne povas plu instrui vian filinon, sinjorino"

"Plu" and "pli" can sometimes be similar but there is a great basic difference. "Plu" is a word related to time (and place). "Pli" shows comparison and gradations of size. "Pli" can show time only if there is another time-related word in the sentence, or if one is understood.

Li rakontis plu = He continued his story
Li rakontis pli = He told about more things
Li ne vivos plu = He will not live anymore
Li ne vivos pli = He won't live longer than someone else will live
Thank you very much for your explanation. I believe I understand now.

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