Mesaĝoj: 10
Lingvo: English
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-22 11:42:02
"A word in one language is seldom the exact equivalent of a word in a different language. Each word is the centre of a whole cluster of meanings and associations, and in different languages these clusters overlap but do not often coincide. The place of a word in the clause or sentence, or even in a larger unit of thought, will determine what aspect of its total meaning is in the foreground. The translator can hardly hope to convey in another language every shade of meaning that attaches to the word in the original, but if he is free to exploit a wide range of English words covering a similar area of meaning and association he may hope to carry over the meaning of the sentence as a whole."
(From the translators' introduction to the New Testament of the New English Bible)
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-22 12:30:48
How many cultures would have a different idea of what a telephone is.
Also, I imagine 'I was born in (name of town)' could usually be translated without loss of meaning.
1Guy1 (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-22 12:42:13
Miland:"A word in one language is seldom the exact equivalent of a word in a different language. (From the translator's introduction to the New Testament of the New English Bible)This is why literal translation is not always the best. I hear what Sudanglo says about telephone not being ambivalent. It is the more abstract ideas that are harder to translate.
For example, in the Greek New Testament the word 'logos' (most often translated 'word') has a whole range of ideas behind it, in the language itself and also in Rabbinic & Philosophical (especially Platonic)thought .
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-22 13:01:03
1Guy1:For example, in the Greek New Testament the word 'logos' (most often translated 'word') has a whole range of ideas behind it, in the language itself and also in Rabbinic & Philosophical (especially Platonic)thought .I'm curious, what would the Greek word 'logos' have to do with Rabbinic thought, considering that Rabbinic philosophy was mainly conducted and written in Hebrew and Aramaic?
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-22 14:24:55
Concerning the use of logos in Jewish thought in general, however, an important exponent was Philo of Alexandria.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-22 20:50:25
Miland:Concerning the use of logos in Jewish thought in general, however, an important exponent was Philo of Alexandria.I see. I wouldn't really say that Philo contributed to Jewish thought. He most surely contributed to Christian thought, however. Though he was interested in merging Jewish and Greek philosophies, early Christians found this mixture much more interesting than the Jews of the time (or later). Therefore his impact on Jewish thought was negligible, though it seems his impact on Christian thought was considerable. It makes sense, in a way - early Christians were trying to find a way to make certain Jewish beliefs palatable to converts of non-Jewish origin, so this "Jewish plus Greek" philosophical hybrid must have seemed very interesting.
1Guy1 (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-23 16:33:15
erinja:Forgive me if this a bit vague as I am at work & have no access to my reference books, the connection, if I get this right, was the use of the Aramaic word 'Memra' which also means word (derived from 'amar'?) & was used instead of the divine name.1Guy1:For example, in the Greek New Testament the word 'logos' (most often translated 'word') has a whole range of ideas behind it, in the language itself and also in Rabbinic & Philosophical (especially Platonic)thought .I'm curious, what would the Greek word 'logos' have to do with Rabbinic thought, considering that Rabbinic philosophy was mainly conducted and written in Hebrew and Aramaic?
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-23 20:38:55
1Guy1:Forgive me if this a bit vague as I am at work & have no access to my reference books, the connection, if I get this right, was the use of the Aramaic word 'Memra' which also means word (derived from 'amar'?) & was used instead of the divine name.Your message left me clueless about what you were talking about, so I did a little Google search on it (search terms: memra and Aramaic).
It seems that "memra" does represent an Aramaic word used in some Targum translations of Hebrew texts. But my search results showed that Christians are nearly the only ones interested in that word, especially messianic groups.
That word isn't really used outside of the Targum texts. The Hebrew word "ma'amar" (Hebrew version of the same word) is used in the Torah, meaning both "word" and "command". But it is used in Hebrew texts almost exclusively in situations where you'd expect to find a term like "word" or "command". It hasn't taken on the philosophical meaning that "memra" or "logos" seems to have taken on for Christians.
1Guy1 (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-23 23:16:43
erinja:Perhaps this is more helpful to you:
Your message left me clueless about what you were talking about
Jewish_encyclopedia - memra
Translating logos has been problematic - there is a passage in Goethe's Faust where Faust struggles with the issue:
'Tis writ, "In the beginning was the Word!"
I pause, perplex'd! Who now will help afford?
I cannot the mere Word so highly prize;
I must translate it otherwise,
If by the spirit guided as I read.
"In the beginning was the Sense!" Take heed,
The import of this primal sentence weigh,
Lest thy too hasty pen be led astray!
Is force creative then of Sense the dower?
"In the beginning was the Power!"
Thus should it stand: yet, while the line I trace.
A something warns me, once more to efface.
The spirit aids! from anxious scruples freed,
I write, "In the beginning was the Deed!"
As a problematic word, I was looking to this as an example of Miland's quote:
A word in one language is seldom the exact equivalent of a word in a different language
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-24 02:14:26
1Guy1:Perhaps this is more helpful to you:Perhaps I should have been more specific. I had no clue what you were talking about, so I googled it and learned what I needed to know before composing my original reply. (and I did find the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on it - it was nearly the only Jewish link I found on it, almost everything else was pages by messianics)
At any rate, I think it's sufficient to say that the Greek idea of logos has almost nothing to do with Jewish thought, so Christian sources are the ones that should be investigated when looking for a suitable translation.
It may be helpful to seek out some Christian texts in Esperanto that may discuss this topic. That's often a tactic of mine when I'm looking for a vocabulary word, I try to find related texts in the target language, to see what terminology they seem to be using.