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Participial Formatives

de Frakseno, 2008-septembro-11

Mesaĝoj: 10

Lingvo: English

Frakseno (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-11 18:16:00

I don't know why these concepts are proving to be as difficult to me as they are, but I am having trouble resolving the meaning and use of the various participles.

Could you please define, use, and compare the following words for me?

1. Konstruita
2. Konstruinta

3. Konstruata
4. Konstruanta

5. Konstruota
6. Konstruonta

Mi dankegas vin!
Thank you much!

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-11 18:39:48

We may say that something, say a building, has been built (ĝi estas konstruita), or sometimes, maybe, that it is being built (ĝi estas konstruata), or that it is going to be built (ĝi estas konstruota). These are the passive participles; something is happening to the building (it's being constructed).

On the other hand, we might say of someone that he has built something and finished the process (li estas konstruinta), or that he is still at it (li estas konstruanta), or that he is going to be (li estas konstruonta). These are the active participles and have the 'n'.

Clearer now?

For reference, here's a page from PMEG.

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-11 19:33:18

I think the key matter is that participles are meant to show the state of the action. When used in compound verb tenses, the verb "esti" gives the time of the action.

A participle shows a state, and there are three states for an action: the action can be finished, in progress (= unfinished), or going to happen.

-ant- = the action is in progress.
-int- = the action is finished.
-ont- = the action is going to happen.

manĝanta = relative to an action of eating in progress. (not necessarily in the present!)

manĝinta = relative to an concluded action of eating.

manĝonta = relative to an action of eating that has not (had not, will not have) started yet.

Because of the dualism active/passive, there are three more forms, which work the same but of course their meaning is passive.

manĝata = relative to an action of being eaten in progress.

manĝita = relative to a concluded action of being eaten

manĝota = relative to an action of being eaten that has not (had not, will not have) started yet.

* * *

Now that you have defined the state of the action, by using esti you add the information about its time.

Mi estas manĝanta = My action of eating is in progress. (I am eating)

Mi estis manĝanta = My action of eating was in progress. (I was eating)

Mi estos manĝanta = My action of eating will be in progress (I will be eating).

Mi estas manĝata = My action of being eaten is in progress. (I am being eaten)

Mi estis manĝata = My action of being eaten was in progress. (I was being eaten)

Mi estos manĝata = My action of being eaten will be in progress (I will be being eaten).

* * *

I will not recite the full list, but I will add a few more examples:

* * *

Mi estas manĝinta = My action of eating has concluded in the present (I have eaten)

Mi estos manĝota = My action of being eaten will be going to happen in the future. (I will be going to be eaten).

Mi estis manĝonta = My action of eating was going to happen in the past. (I was going to eat).

* * *

I hope the mechanism is clearer to you now. If not, feel free to complain okulumo.gif

trojo (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-11 21:04:49

Frakseno:Could you please define, use, and compare the following words for me?
I'll give it a shot. The basic difference of course is that -it, -at, and -ot are passive, whereas -int, -ant, and -ont are active. Konstru- is perhaps not the easiest root to work with to illustrate, but I'll try.

1. Konstruita - constructed, built (in the past). Mi loĝas en domo konstruita sur sablo. ("I live in a house built on sand"). I say "-ita" because my house has already been built.

2. Konstruinta - constructing, building (in the past). I don't see "-inta" used a whole lot; it is more common to see "-int" words formed as nouns, in which case it always refers to a person; e.g., La konstruinto de mia domo estas tre agrabla homo. ("The builder of my house is a very nice man"). I say "-into" because he has already built my house.

3. Konstruata - constructed, built (in the present). La domo, kiun ni hodiaŭ konstruas, estas konstruata el ŝtono. ("The house that we are building today is built out of stone"). Still ongoing as of today, so "-ata".

4. Konstruanta - constructing, building (in the present). Mi laboras ĉe konstruanta firmao. ("I work at a building company").

5. Konstruota - constructed, built (in the future). Tia domo estus facile konstruota. ("Such a house would be easily built"). Not used very often. I think most people would say something like, Konstrui tian domon estus facile. ("To build such a house would be easy"), which conveys the same essential meaning.

6. Konstruonta - constructing, building (in the future). Seldom used.

The future participles are not often used in everyday speech or writing, perhaps because most natural languages have no equivalent.

Some comparisons that may be handy:

-ita versus -ata: The rule that past tense refers to things that are completely in the past applies to participles too (and not just finite verbs). So if you say a building is konstruata, it is still in the process of being built, whereas a konstruita building is finished. Of the two, -ita is by far the more commonly used. On the other hand, many verbs like koni, nomi, scii, and a few others are seen as ongoing processes, and so will most commonly have the -ata ending instead of -ita; e.g. La tiel nomata vivo aĉas ("So-called life sucks"), or Famuloj estas bone konataj en la tuta mondo. ("Famous people are well known throughout the world").

-inta versus -anta: Similar to the above, but in this case, -anta is by far more commonly used than -inta. It can be used to make such phrases as la brilantaj steloj ("the shining stars").

I don't know if any of the above makes any sense whatsoever, or if it just creates additional confusion.

Lastly, the use of phraseology like Mi estis konstruanta ion or Mi estos konstruinta ion is avoided by most people, even though it is commonly seen in Esperanto courses. Use simple tenses plus some adverbs or whatever to express those ideas, rather than trying to use participles as a surrogate progressive or perfect tense. I tried above to give examples of how participles can be used in a way that isn't evitinda.

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-11 21:52:14

trojo:1. Konstruita - constructed, built (in the past).
Participles do not refer to the past or the future, but to the state of the action. "konstruita" means that the action is, has been, or will be finished. There is no relation to the absolute time of the action.
Mi laboras ĉe konstruanta firmao. ("I work at a building company").
"konstruanta firmao" is a company whose action of building is (will be, was) in progress. I think that "konstrua firmao" is perhaps a better way to specify a company related to the general process of building.
5. Konstruota [...] Not used very often.
-ota can be used to strengthen -enda. Konstruota domo is a house that is (was, will) going to be built, period, while Konstruenda domo (= "a house that has to be built") is better suited to convey the potential agreement of the narrator.

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-12 03:23:03

mnlg:Participles do not refer to the past or the future, but to the state of the action. "konstruita" means that the action is, has been, or will be finished. There is no relation to the absolute time of the action.
I have never seen participles explained this way, and that wasn't really how I thought about them, but that makes total sense to me. It actually even clears up some questions and uncertainties I'd been having about them.

Good explanation!

trojo (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-12 14:21:42

Yeah, that explanation makes more sense to me too. What he said!

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-12 14:53:32

trojo:What he said!
Reminds me of Hot Fuzz, for some reason ridulo.gif

hiyayaywhopee (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-14 06:32:04

mnlg:Participles do not refer to the past or the future, but to the state of the action. "konstruita" means that the action is, has been, or will be finished. There is no relation to the absolute time of the action.
I was under the impression that it relates back to the primary verb. For example, in "Li loĝos en la konstruita domo" the participle would to the house that will be built before he lives in it, potentially already been built, but the point is he's not going to have to wake up to construction workers banging on his roof at eight in the morning... right?

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-septembro-14 09:52:15

I'm not sure that there needs to be a 'primary verb' to refer to. Konstruita domo, for example, simply means a finished house. Hence, as mnlg said, the participle only refers to the state - finishedness here. The time need not be in the past relative to the observer. It could be in the future. We might, for example be describing a empty location under development and say 'You will see a finished house there in a few months.' Vi vidos konstruitan domon tie post kelkaj monatoj.

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