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Help with syllable splits

de norrisx0, 2008-oktobro-17

Mesaĝoj: 9

Lingvo: English

norrisx0 (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-17 21:48:16

I'm not sure of the syllable split of words when j is in the middle of a word. Does the j directly following a vowel always form a dipthong? For example what is the proper syllable split for krajono:

1) kraj-o-no

aŭ

2) kra-jo-no

I think the proper split is kraj-o-no.

Dankon

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-18 02:35:01

norrisx0:I think the proper split is kraj-o-no.
You think correctly.

"aj" is a single, indivisible, sound in Esperanto.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-18 11:19:05

According to PMEG (I translate):

"Sometimes people ask, whether in, for example kajo or naŭa, the half-vowel (respectively j or ŭ) ahould be supported by the earlier or later vowel. Should it be ka-jo aŭ kaj-o, na-ŭa or naŭ-a? There are no rules about this. You can pronounce them as you wish. However Ŭ is most often supported by the earlier vowel. The pairs AŬ and EŬ are, as it were, fixed combinations of sounds."

Therefore, in my opinion, either would be correct.

andrew.longhofer (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-19 22:39:12

Honestly, to my ear, there isn't really a distinction. I tend to think of semivowels as functioning in the same capacity as consonants: they exist to transition from one vowel to the next. The only difference is the execution of an intermediate mouth position that does not close or collide any two parts of the mouth. They don't really CHANGE the sound of a vowel; in nauxa there is still a distinct a sound on either side of the ux. The ux merely provides some isolation between the two syllables of pronounced a.

Really, the only place I see this question even being an issue comes when the semivowel happens between the penultimate (stressed) syllable and the ultimate (unstressed, final) syllable, and only if you are TRYING to make it inherently change the vowel sound.

Short version? They don't change vowels, just transition between them. Err on the side of pronouncing EVERY letter. That's one of the billing points of Eo, isn't it? ^_^

Rogir (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-23 16:19:00

I must say that I completely disagree with RiotNrrd. According to the Fundamento, there are only 5 vowels in esperanto, and you could perhaps add eŭ and aŭ as diphthongs. But aj, ej or others are not single sounds, although you'll probably pronounce them as diphtongs.

Maybe you think so because they are in english. But not every language has the same phonemics as english.

Now in general, consonants are preferably grouped with the following syllable, so in this case I'd say it's kra-jono.

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-24 01:36:42

Rogir:I must say that I completely disagree with RiotNrrd.
Heh. You wouldn't be the first. ridulo.gif

I may have answered a bit too quickly and perhaps was off-base.

However, splitting it as kra-jono implies that it is pronounced (using an Englishy transliteration) "krah YO no". But this is not correct. It is pronounced "cry OH no". The "aj" combo is not the same as "a" and "j" simply placed next to one another, but in different syllables.

Rohan (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-24 07:17:55

Here comes another case of disagreement...

In Esperanto, it's a given that each letter can always be pronounced using its 'basic' pronunciation. For example, it may so happen that while pronouncing the combination 'ng', the 'n' gets assimilated into the 'g', but one can certainly pronounce it without assimilating the 'n', without any fear of that pronunciation being labelled 'wrong'. So pronouncing 'aj' as a diphthong might be convenient, but if one were to pronounce those letters with their basic pronunciations, that ought to perfectly fine... In fact, I daresay it would probably be more faithful to the 'One letter, one sound' ideal of the Fundamento...

Also, stress (at least in Esperanto, as far as I know) is always carried by a vowel. So whether the word is split into 'kra-YO-no' or 'cry-O-no', the stress is carried by the same vowel.

Considering these points, I don't see why 'kra-YO-no' should be termed 'not correct'. I think it's a perfectly valid way to pronounce the word.

P.S. Mr. Miland has translated 'Tamen Ŭ plej ofte apogas sin al la antaŭa vokalo.' as 'However with Ŭ we most often stress the earlier vowel.'. I don't agree. I'd say, "However, Ŭ is usually supported by the previous vowel." The issue being discussed in the relevant paragraph of the PMEG is not 'Which vowel should be stressed?', but 'During syllabification, should Ŭ be considered part of the syllable containing the vowel preceding it, or of the one containing the vowel succeeding it?'

I humbly rest my case(s). ridulo.gif

jan aleksan (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-24 08:29:07

The j as a consonnant is important.

Compare "jam" and "iam". First, "j" shouldn't sound like /i/, but like /y/ as in "huge".

second, the accent is not located on the same place: jAm, Iam.

But personally, I think that it would be easier if "j" simply didn't exist...

ridulo.gif,

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-oktobro-24 09:43:54

Rohan: I'd say, "However, Ŭ is usually supported by the previous vowel."
Yes, the word 'stress' would cause confusion here. What I meant was 'emphasize' (by the juxtaposed half-vowel), but the text itself uses the word 'support' which may be best here. I have edited my earlier post accordingly; thanks for pointing this out.

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