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h vs. hx

di Dodge, 28 marzo 2007

Messaggi: 13

Lingua: English

Dodge (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 02:31:35

What is the difference between "h" and "hx?"

I've listened to the sound files on the site and I can't tell them apart. (Nor can I hear the difference between horo and hxoro).

Much the same trouble with "jx" and "gx." As well as "c" and "s"

It is very frustrating. Arg. Can anyone clarify?

~Dodge

Paamayim (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 02:54:20

As I understand it, the "h" is a regular h in English whereas the "ĥ" is a rolled h. The sound files in the introduction don't do very well to clarify this.

As for "c" and "s", I think the only difference is the amount of air required. C's are generally softer an S is a little harder. The same thing for "ĵ" and "ĝ", ĝ being the harder letter.

That's not an official answer, just my take on it. Hope it helps (assuming it's right)!

gcdude (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 03:08:57

H is the usual English h. Ĥ is the Spanish j, the German ch, the Greek x, or the sound you make when you hock up phlegm.

C is pronounced ts, or like the zz in pizza. Ĉ is the ch in church.

S is the English s. Ŝ is the English sh.

G is the g in give. Ĝ is the g in age.

J is the y in yellow. Ĵ is the s in vision.

To Paamayim, it's not really a difference in amount of air, it's the place of articulation. Basically that means where you put your tongue when you make the sound.

Urho (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 10:22:40

gcdude:... Ĥ is the Spanish j, the German ch, the Greek x
and the Russian x, ...

annadahlqvist (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 12:08:12

in my ears the ĥ sounds a bit like that arabic sound that I don't know the name of, but much less pronounced.

What I do not quite understand is, if esperanto is supposed to be as easy as possible, then why not write, ts for c, tŝ for ĉ, and dĵ for ĝ? Or have I got it wrong, is it pronounced differently from that?

Islander (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 13:53:46

What I do not quite understand is, if esperanto is supposed to be as easy as possible, then why not write, ts for c, tŝ for ĉ, and dĵ for ĝ?
A clarification is needed here. Esperanto is supposed to be as easy as possible for everybody equally. Not all languages uses such combination and that may make even less sense for them.

orikteropo (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 14:40:56

Islander:
What I do not quite understand is, if esperanto is supposed to be as easy as possible, then why not write, ts for c, tŝ for ĉ, and dĵ for ĝ?
A clarification is needed here. Esperanto is supposed to be as easy as possible for everybody equally. Not all languages uses such combination and that may make even less sense for them.
Zamenhof used these unusual (or, as with some, completely unique) letters so that it makes it equally unusual for everyone around the world to learn -- it means that no one has an advantage over anyone else.

Zamenhof originally had a more Slavic-looking spelling system for Esperanto before it was published in 1887 (called Proto-Esperanto at the time). For this, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Esperanto

Also, see here for a modified script, named Shavian Script (Ŝava Alfabeto), modified for use with Esperanto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet

Paamayim (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 15:00:21

Also, with the exception of the *ŭ construct, every phoneme maps to a single letter in Esperanto. If you start introducing two letter phonemes, the phonetics of the language become exponentially harder to learn.

Dodge (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 18:03:40

Thanks everyone. I'm still horribly confused, but I think that's more from trying to tune my ear than an actual lack of understanding. The explanantions were wonderful.

~Dodge

erinja (Mostra il profilo) 28 marzo 2007 18:57:43

Dodge:Thanks everyone. I'm still horribly confused, but I think that's more from trying to tune my ear than an actual lack of understanding. The explanantions were wonderful.

~Dodge
The ĥ is pronounced like the ch in "Bach". But if you can't make that sound (think "kkhhh"), the letter ĥ is actually not that common, and steadily falling out of use in most words, so it's not the end of the world if you can't pronounce it very well. I think if you hear it pronounced well, the difference should be clear to you. I think that native English speakers should be able to easily distinguish between h and ĥ, if the pronunciation is good.

You might try listening to some of the stories in the library section. They have audio files and texts; see if you can't find one with the letter ĥ used in it, and listen to that. The speaker who does those texts has a good accent.

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