English modality in Esperanto.
od Solulo, 11. rujna 2011.
Poruke: 45
Jezik: English
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 14. rujna 2011. 09:33:27
I never saw it when I was learning Esperanto with fellow students, nor at British congresses where there would be quite a few Esperantists of limited experience with the language, and I don't see it now in the Esperanto Forums from French or English speakers, who are obviously komencantoj.
It is an interesting idea that the complex forms should be viewed as emphatic forms, but I'm not sure that I am convinced.
Puzzling over why it does sound odd to reply 'Mi estas studanta' to the question 'Kion vi studas', I half-formed the view that -as in Esperanto actually functions by default as the equivalent to the continuous form in English UNLESS physical or further linguistic context determines otherwise.
The most likely response to 'Kion vi faras' would not be (for example) 'Mi estas instruisto'. So 'Kion vi faras' is not usually interpeted as 'What do you do', unless context makes it clear that the topic is occupations.
However, if being polite I offer a cigarette with the enquiry 'Ĉu vi fumas' I clearly don't mean 'Are you smoking' because I can see whether that is or is not the case.
It would be a different matter on the phone if I heard the other party coughing. Then the suitable interpetation might be 'Are you smoking' (I can't see the other party).
Incidentally, I guess that why one needs to be extra careful in the written language, if one is translating dialogue, is that the physical context is not so obvious as it is in face to face speech.
And it is in reading not in rekta interparolado, that I have largely had the experience of having to parse the sentence several times to grasp what the meaning is.
RiotNrrd (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 02:46:58
sudanglo:I never saw it when I was learning Esperanto with fellow students, nor at British congresses where there would be quite a few Esperantists of limited experience with the language, and I don't see it now in the Esperanto Forums from French or English speakers, who are obviously komencantoj.I don't see it a LOT in the forums, but I do see it. I think the reason I don't see it all the time is because komencantoj tend to be a little intimidated by the Esperanto forums and don't post there much; by and large, the participants in the forums are intermediate and advanced speakers who know better.
At first, many people want to translate literally rather than conceptually. Translating the meaning, not the words, is just something they have to learn - it's not hard, but if you're not used to it, it can be a trick. For an English speaker, that can mean relying on English's tendency towards complex-form expression where in Esperanto the simpler form would be encouraged.
Students eventually learn to prefer the simple forms over the complex, and about then they join us in the forums.
geo63 (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 05:23:46
darkweasel (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 05:37:29
geo63:The reason for simple forms might be that many languages do not use them very often. For example in Polish we express these ideas with simple verb forms (the lack of Past Perfect in Polish does not mean that we can not express its meaning - we simply do it differently). Since we are good with it, others could too.Actually English is a language with an extreme tendency to use complex verb forms, IMO. For some reason I’ve never seen the point in distinguishing "I did", "I was doing", "I have done" and "I have been doing" (and I am sure that I still make mistakes when choosing between them). For example, French distinguishes only between perfect and imperfect, and the spoken language in the southern parts of the German-speaking region does not distinguish any of them (we use a form morphologically similar to "I have done" for all of these, or the present tense for things like "I’ve been living here since 1998"). For some reason that doesn’t prevent any of these languages from being expressive, and Esperanto as well can do fine with just -is.
I do see a point in distinguishing them from the past perfect tense, and I use estis ...inta in Esperanto too. I don’t like the alternative mi jam faris because that could also mean "I was already doing".
RiotNrrd (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 05:53:02
darkweasel:Actually English is a language with an extreme tendency to use complex verb forms, IMO. For some reason I’ve never seen the point in distinguishing "I did", "I was doing", "I have done" and "I have been doing"Don't forget "I will have been doing". That's four verbs in a row, in a whole variety of tenses. Constructions like that do make me feel sorry for non-native learners.
As a native English speaker, none of the cited forms are a problem for me, and I can use any of them perfectly correctly any time I need to, without even thinking about it.
That's the sort of unfair linguistic advantage English speakers have. I actually prefer Esperanto's way.
darkweasel (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 06:27:35
RiotNrrd:actually i understand this one and do see a point in distinguishing it from the others.
Don't forget "I will have been doing".
ceigered (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 07:52:12
darkweasel:As a native speak, I honestly find that form to be a bit of a mind&%$#RiotNrrd:actually i understand this one and do see a point in distinguishing it from the others.
Don't forget "I will have been doing".
For me, there's just (note I'm writing this as it sounds phonetically, not what it should be)
1) "I'll've done (it)" ('ve could be replaced by "of" in incorrect spelling since it's a very hard sound to hear clearly)
2) "I'll be doing (it)"
(technically "I'll be having done (it)" also comes to mind)
The only example for Riot's I can think of is "by that time I will have been doing (something)", but even then that's interchangeable with "by that time I'd've been eating" (this ones more preferable since it rolls of the tongue easier - "I'd've" sorta sounds like "aedov" (EO spelling) the way I speak).
darkweasel (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 08:32:32
ceigered:well, actually i mean just the general distinction between what in esperanto is -os and estos -inta. i do see a point in distinguishing that from a normal future tense, but none in distinguishing "will have done" and "will have been doing".darkweasel:As a native speak, I honestly find that form to be a bit of a mind&%$#RiotNrrd:actually i understand this one and do see a point in distinguishing it from the others.
Don't forget "I will have been doing".
geo63 (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 08:39:19
I will have been having been done...
Who cares what tenses the English have for themselves - we (foreigners) do not use even those rightful ones when speaking Globish.
ceigered (Prikaz profila) 16. rujna 2011. 09:29:14
geo63:You are forgetting:On the contrary, you guys generally do tend to do things alright. We're talking tenses that are verging on rare here for the modern, colloquial, plebeian speaker of English
I will have been having been done...
Who cares what tenses the English have for themselves - we (foreigners) do not use even those rightful ones when speaking Globish.
- very artificial or literary.(I will have been having been having done would be more correct BTW, unless you wanted it to be passive
. Frick, this stuff is like maths! 
)