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Complex forrm, New Test. Example

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ururimi: English

cFlat7 (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 12:18:17

There is a discussion on another thread about complex forms in Eo. Instead of possibly side-tracking that discussion I thought it better to bring this up in a new thread.

I just came across the following example of a complex form in the New Testament: "Vi auxdis, ke estas dirite: Ne adultu;..." (Matthew 5:27).

Why 'estas' and not 'estis'? Why is the 'dir' root added in the passive? Perhaps it has someting to with the fact that there is a missing or implied subject(?).

Here is one English version of this verse: "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery."

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 12:51:13

cFlat7:
I just came across the following example of a complex form in the New Testament: "Vi auxdis, ke estas dirite: Ne adultu;..." (Matthew 5:27).

Why 'estas' and not 'estis'?
Hm, that is indeed somewhat strange and I would use estis myself.

cFlat7: Why is the 'dir' root added in the passive? Perhaps it has someting to with the fact that there is a missing or implied subject(?).
For the same reason that your English-language version has a passive voice ("it was said to those of old").

robinast (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 14:30:49

darkweasel:
cFlat7:
I just came across the following example of a complex form in the New Testament: "Vi auxdis, ke estas dirite: Ne adultu;..." (Matthew 5:27).

Why 'estas' and not 'estis'?
Hm, that is indeed somewhat strange and I would use estis myself.
Hmmm... 'estas' here sounds completely normally for me. Esperanto uses a different logic here than English (we use the same logic in Estonian): though both 'aŭdis' and 'estas dirite' ocurred in the past at our viewpoint, 'estas dirite' occurred in the present for the listener.

Compare:[LISTO]
He said: "I am at home." --- He said that he was at home.
Li diris: "Mi estas hejme." --- Li diris, ke li estas hejme.[/list]Both English and Esperanto phrases mean that he was at home while talking about it (fe by phone).

And 'Li diris, ke li estis hejme.' would be 'He said he has had [Thanks to sudanglo!] been at home.' in English, not 'He said he was at home.'.

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 15:12:56

robinast:
Hmmm... 'estas' here sounds completely normally for me. Esperanto uses a different logic here than English (we use the same logic in Estonian): though both 'aŭdis' and 'estas dirite' ocurred in the past at our viewpoint, 'estas dirite' occurred in the present for the listener.

Compare:[LISTO]
He said: "I am at home." --- He said that he was at home.
Li diris: "Mi estas hejme." --- Li diris, ke li estas hejme.[/list]Both English and Esperanto phrases mean that he was at home while talking about it (fe by phone).

And 'Li diris, ke li estis hejme.' would be 'He said he has been at home.' in English, not 'He said he was at home.'.
I’m aware of that logic in Esperanto, but I don’t know how it applies to that sentence in question.

I could imagine estis dirite or estas dirate in this sentence, but IMO estas dirite does not make a lot of sense. After all, it’s the action of saying, not the state of having been said, that is being talked about.

robinast (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 15:58:34

darkweasel:
I could imagine estis dirite or estas dirate in this sentence, but IMO estas dirite does not make a lot of sense. After all, it’s the action of saying, not the state of having been said, that is being talked about.
Oh, well, as it seems, I did not read carefully enough. I actually kept 'estas dirate' in my mind while writing my previous post... 'estas dirite' seems truly a bit unexpected here ... I have to think about it - but the first impression is that something could be wrong indeed... demando.gif

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 17:32:21

estas dirite makes sense to me.

I would translate it as "it is said", versus "estis dirite", "it was said"

Estis dirite implies that this thing was said in the past, but it's no longer current.

Estas dirite implies that it was said in the past, and it is still valid today.

Like saying in English "It is said that power corrupts"

Versus "It was said that power corrupts".

mihxil (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 18:44:52

darkweasel:After all, it’s the action of saying, not the state of having been said, that is being talked about.
Are you sure? Since it is 'estas dirite' and not 'estis dirate', I interpreted it as that you heard from somebody that at some time earlier somebody else said 'ne adultu'.

UUano (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 19:28:59

I agree with erinja, even though my English-language (NIV) Bible says "it was said", having it read "it is said" or "it has been said" makes more sense to me.

As for 'estis dirate', would that not mean "it was being said"?

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 20:20:48

estis dirate = it was being said
estis dirite = it had been said
estas dirite = it has been said

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nyakanga 2011 20:34:56

mihxil:
darkweasel:After all, it’s the action of saying, not the state of having been said, that is being talked about.
Are you sure? Since it is 'estas dirite' and not 'estis dirate', I interpreted it as that you heard from somebody that at some time earlier somebody else said 'ne adultu'.
I always thought estas ...ite/ita was not a description of an action, but just a description of the subject.

What does la pordo estas fermita say about the closing of the door? Not really anything, it just says that the door is closed. If I want to say "the door was closed" (i.e. the passive equivalent of iu fermis la pordon), I need to say la pordo estis fermita - which is exactly not a past perfect (plusquamperfect) form.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

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