qwertz:I see it this way, that the process historically was controlled by some restrictive movement members.

I disagree.

Word usage has never been controlled by a central authority. People use the words that they want to use. Of course the Academy of Esperanto makes recommendations on usage, but no one is forcing anyone to follow those recommendations. Sometimes the community comes up with a new word and it becomes popular, so the Academy adds it to the official dictionary. Sometimes the Academy recommends a word and people start to use it. Sometimes the Academy recommends something and the community decides to use another form, completely ignoring the Academy's opinion!

Most people aren't reading the Academy's publications all the time. My guess is that most Esperanto speakers have NEVER read a publication of the Academy.

There is no closed circle who makes decisions and forces others to use them. It's a process of evolution, the same as every other language. People create new words and others decide whether to use them or not. Some words live and become part of the language. Some die. It's a choice of each speaker, when she hears a new word, to decide whether to use that word herself, or to decide that she doesn't need it, and to ignore it.

That movado folks (online & offline) described at Libera Folio have a habit, which values Esperanto-Newbies constructive critics against Newbies Esperanto language proficiency. That conservative folks celebrate everything else than a open-minded community style. I see and experienced* an community that way, that "senior" members are open-minded to new and constructive evolution critics. And that independly of level of newbies expert knowledge. If that Movado folks are not capable of accepting this, they are - laŭ me - incapable to innovative evaluate. Thats not directly regarding language evolution. Its regarding basic group vibe/mood. And because of the very competitive hobby situation, Esperanto language hobby needs an same fast innovation adapting "workflow" like other hobby-styled communities do, to. Because of these issues that paranoid Movado folks "können mich mal kreuzweise". (I don't know how to say it with the same fine tunes like in German. Its not directly offending. Its more kind of long distance keeping.) I already found my Esperanto place to be at the Raŭmisma komunumo.

* i.e. during Ubuntu community online & offline onsite meetings

jean-luc:People use mainly the words they were taught, that means words which has been standardised by an authority, mandatorily taught in school

Except that Esperanto isn't really taught in schools. People learn it through informal courses, and teachers teach varying vocabularies. And even in national languages, people use all kinds of slang and words that aren't taught in school.

Even in cases where a language has a governing academy, people can freely ignore what that academy says.

I don't recall ever being taught the word "un-friend" in my school years, but I understand it very well and use it when appropriate!

It's a process of evolution, the same as every other language. People create new words and others decide whether to use them or not. Some words live and become part of the language. Some die. It's a choice of each speaker

Well yes, Erinja, except that, in the case of Eperanto, that leaves out an important part of the story.

In the natural languages, the adoption of some new word or expression is largely a case of unthinking imitation. The community does not apply some critical review as to consistency with regard to certain principles.

That this clearly happens in Esperanto is evidenced by the sorts of discussions that you see in threads in the Lernu Forums on how to translate certain concepts into Esperanto.

Proposals are assessed both in terms of how they fit with certain principles of the language and also, frequently, with reference to authoritative sources.

You cannot look at the natural languages and conclude that phenomena observable in the language development of those languages MUST be repeated in Esperanto.

Not that it must be, but that it can be, without the speakers realizing it.

Yes Razlem, some general features of natural languages may also appear in Esperanto - and possibly some features of Esperanto do NOT appear in the natural languages.

However, we can comfortably draw the conclusion that a non-Esperantist linguist has no special authority in making a sweeping generalization about Esperanto from his observations of natural languages.

How can the non-Esperantist linguist know which features of natural languages are, or are not, replicated in Esperanto?

erinja:
Except that Esperanto isn't really taught in schools. People learn it through informal courses, and teachers teach varying vocabularies.

I'm not sure what "informal course" means in detail. Its nethertheless a kind of classroom situation, isn't? Yes, I know, its on focus of most weekend course courses to add other cultural Esperantujo activities, too. The offline Esperanto course course I took part were done by an college teacher candidate (Bavaria state). We went trough the learning material and did a lot of questioning. For me, it was a kind of pupil's trust, that she has full command of Esperanto matters. (She definitivly has.) Due to shift work at this time I unfortunately were not capable to attend the full course timeline.

Also the IC Herzberg/Germany tries to motivate Esperantist to aquire Esperanto teacher certificates (klerigado kaj pluklerigado kun modula trejnado por akiri atestilon pri instrukapablo). Esperanto is teached there at one college and primary school I remember. So, there are already running initatives to teach Esperanto at primary school. Yes, I agree that has some kind of "test ballon" character. (Regarding primary school in current Germany excists compulsory school attendance. Parents are not allowed to teach their kids by themselves. Learning material/timeline are/is restricted by every German state.)

erinja:
And even in national languages, people use all kinds of slang and words that aren't taught in school.

I didn't attend the primary school system developed in Western-Germany. But I remember, that school and my parents in East-Germany took great efforts to countersteer/gegensteuern against slang I grabbed somewhere. So later that slang matter have never been played a strong role during my conversation. I feel it very valuable to be capable to speak Standardized German/Hochdeutsch. I only like soundcolored words of the Hochdeutsch asset. So, I stay tuned very restricted to what I was "enforced" to learn.

erinja:
Even in cases where a language has a governing academy, people can freely ignore what that academy says.

I agree, because who cares a long distance away academy. An nearby locacted teaching/upbringing "corpus" has much more influence at someones.

erinja:
I don't recall ever being taught the word "un-friend" in my school years, but I understand it very well and use it when appropriate!

To be aware of that distinction I see quite usefull, too. Its a kind of conscious switching capability. Thats definitivly necessary if someones needs to have non-choosen conversation to people who grow up inside different education/parental situations.

Getting back to the topic, the second part of Fry's series, screened last night, was concerned with the link between language and identity - or our affirmation of membership of a certain community.

Personally, I found it excessively sentimental about minority languages (and regional accents), frequently repeating the mantra - without compelling justification -that it is of great value that so many languages (or variations of one language) exist, and lauding the diversity of expression that they provide.

I think he clearly picked up on a Zeitgeist of localism, with attention to how certain languages, which might well have died out in the normal course of events, are now being actively taught and revived. So, for example we saw a class of school children being taught Irish, and the efforts of people in Southern France to bring life to Occitane (if I have the name of the language correct).

I have to say that I think it is a mistake for some Esperantists to try to piggyback on this wave of enthusiasm for minority languages, presenting Esperanto as though it were a valid member of this group and to be protected and cherished as, say, the Welsh language is now in Wales.

For me, Esperanto represents the very opposite of localism.

sudanglo:
Getting back to the topic, the second part of Fry's series, screened last night, was concerned with the link between language and identity - or our affirmation of membership of a certain community.

I see that pointing to an (Native) language & identity relationship somewhat overstretched/overused. Of course if I travel abroad often people anoy with somewhat weired mix of BMW, Oktoberfest and Hitler questions (which is mainly related to Bavaria, but not all of German culture). Personally I don't want to be related only to German language identity. German language will ever be my 1th and Native language. Of course. But, that was not my own will or solely my own merit. (Btw, I'm atheist, who full accept religous peoples doing if it concerns their own matters).

I also see the possibility to change or modify my beliefs which relates to the concept "identity". Btw., I don't care about that fact. I only be happy person, that I get the grant, which caused by historical accidents*, to experiences two total different concepts of society. (communism totalship & social capitalism)

*Whats the correct word for German Zufall?

Why I think that way? Thats why, thats the biggest "emotional bomb"* inside my whole life. The state which did shape some identity to me means I grow up doesn't excist anymore. In detail: implodes (like Greece now). And I expect the same innovative evolution/disposal of traditional non-sense during experiment of European Union, too. Okay, some less tears would be fine.

*I read, that this shock is called "critical incident" at the field of (culture) shock research.

(Btw, its October 03 - German Reunification Day today. I don't feel the same emotional relationsship to this day like Nov 09/1989. Okay, somewhat silent worry-ing.)

sudanglo:
Personally, I found it excessively sentimental about minority languages (and regional accents), frequently repeating the mantra - without compelling justification -that it is of great value that so many languages (or variations of one language) exist, and lauding the diversity of expression that they provide.

Well, there also excists lot of people who feel very deep related to their location. So, can someones justificate, that this is a bad manner? In my opinion, someones everytime has to keep in mind UNESCO's Atlas of the World's Languages in Danger. I remember one Twitter tweet of them, that statistically every 14 days an language disappeares. Language evertimes relates to huges pools of belief which evaluated by the speaker who used/use it.

Btw, whats wrong about being sentimental?

sudanglo:
I think he clearly picked up on a Zeitgeist of localism, with attention to how certain languages, which might well have died out in the normal course of events, are now being actively taught and revived. So, for example we saw a class of school children being taught Irish, and the efforts of people in Southern France to bring life to Occitane (if I have the name of the language correct).

That seems to be offical strategy of the European commission to prepare the abolishment of European national state borderlines. Thats one step to build up an Europa supra-national state corpus. I see that a highest-sensible situation, because, of course that also gives agressive and intolerant local patriotism full way. I'm high interested if EC member use the current situation to enforce that for Greece borderline corpus. The current Greece government gets rapidfire of every site. Never mind, what they try to do, they probably will do it wrong. One solution at this situation could be to delegate responsiblity to EP. I don't know what the Basic Law for Greece Republic says at that case. Is the current goverment allowed to start an referendum to assign Greece sovereign power of Greece territory to direct superintendence of European Parliament?

I'm in doubt, that they try to revive the Drachma again. That would be the absolute nightmare at first for themselves.

sudanglo:
I have to say that I think it is a mistake for some Esperantists to try to piggyback on this wave of enthusiasm for minority languages, presenting Esperanto as though it were a valid member of this group and to be protected and cherished as, say, the Welsh language is now in Wales.

I see it an solution to let be Esperanto one of EU's official languages. Anyway I don't care much of letting reach that status. In my opinion I use that (minority) language in the kind of bridge language I want to use. I.e. in Hungary German language skill can be usefull to find the way around onsite. At big EU scale German isn't a bridge language anymore. At this issue I probably most agree to the Malouf-report. (Pdf file).

http://ec.europa.eu/education/languages/archive/do...

(That document is translated to all offical European languages. Exchange i.e. "en" with "de" etc.)

sudanglo:
For me, Esperanto represents the very opposite of localism.

I don't see a problem with that, as long as localism and cosmopolitism are accepted same valued. I even more see commercial interests into both concept of *ism.

sudanglo:For me, Esperanto represents the very opposite of localism.

I've always found it hard to tie together the themes of localism and internationalism but in my slightly more mature mind (since when I first encountered this topic), I'd have to say that the two don't necessarily have to cancel each other out - internationalism can serve as a vehicle to spread culture and its artefacts from their point of local origin to the rest of the world, and thus this localist mentality can fertalise international culture by developing their unique cultures which are then fed into the giant international machine.

But Esperanto, as a proposed international language (laŭfinvenkisme), is problematic since it seems reasonable to assume that mass adoption of Esperanto would do the same thing as English and endanger lesser used languages where the economic/social benefits of learning the "international language" make caring about your own pointless.

This means we could perhaps divvy-up minority languages to two categories:
1) Minority languages that are sentimentally attractive to their own prospective speaker group, and thus are being revived or withstanding social pressures to abandon lesser-used languages due to their own cultural significance overpowering the perceived benefits of conformity (we can assume most of these languages are spoken in well-off societies that have so little about of social problems that the people can afford to care about this sort of thing, like the West. Or some might belong to proud/unique societies like the Romani)

2) Minority languages that are spoken by people who have far more pressing concerns than the survival of their language, or simply just don't like their language (mostly languages spoken in poor/rural-yet-urbanising/developing areas of the world).