AlexN:

barat:
AlexN, I don't understand you. What are you trying to prove?

Probably you do not understand the...

AlexN, for God's sake, man, please. I have asked you to cut it off. Leave English to the English. They know better than you and me how to use their language and what they need or not, so do not play the role of some native or a linguist. That is all. I will not write anything more in this thread, since I have completely lost my interest.

AlexN:Please note that in Europe English teachers know two variations of English accent: BBC British and Eastern American. So, if you are from Australia, Southern US or Canada, please speak slower. In case you speak Cockney, Irish or Scotch, please use Esperanto even if other person does not know it.

Haha! I laughed even though I shouldn't be
I think (most) Irish could just speak English slower and be understood like Australians (Australians sounding British, Irish sounding like a cross between Americans and Brits), but heavy Scottish accents are hard for even English speakers at times...

Anyway, it still stands that in Anglosphere culture it can be considered rude to speak slow to foreigners because we feel like we're treating them like cavemen or Tarzan - maybe English speakers should be taught how to be more understandable to foreigner?

This is really interesting topic - what subset of a language is the easiest or most understandable for foreigners. 'Small words' are taught at school, "big words" are more likely to have counterparts in other languages. Probably Esperanto is the answer. There is a good collection of common words.

Well, theoretically most of the common words are of Greco-Latin origin which could help too for sciences

ceigered:
I don't really know, you'll have to tell me!

Could you provide an example, please.

Could you provide an example of one of these examples, please? [/quote]

razlem:The pronouns have an 'objective form', which is what you've demonstrated. But 'case' implies declension across the majority of nouns, which is absent in modern English.

In the example you gave, "cat" is not in any case. In English, the word order dictates a word's relation to the others, unlike Russian or German, which both allow freer word orders because of accusative/dative/etc. declension.

Yeah, I think declension cases as a system are non-existentent in English.

Only the genitive enclitic and object pronouns survive. Perhaps the direction English is headed in is one where a word simply has a meaning and its value is determined by word order and position relevant to other words.

Or we could just call things cases even though that's not their origin:
From the house = definite ablative case
turned into a wizard = *translative case
with a hammer = indefinite instrumental case
He with his wife was without love as a parent = comitative w/ abessive w/ essive case

Always a good place to go if enjoy your simple question of "how do you say "with" in Finnish" turned into a journey through linguistic terminology.

*Is there a word for when it's indefinite as to whether you should use a definite or indefinite article? .

ceigered:
Haha! I laughed even though I shouldn't be

He, he, young man, keep back. Don't cross the Zebrasteifen at red lights. Why? I can't see any cars.

People from countries with few immigrants are perhaps not very used to foreigners learning their language, and maybe they are not very used to interacting with non-native speakers of their language.

In English, we frequently encounter people who do not natively speak English. In a few words, we have to evaluate the other person's level of English, and speak accordingly. You don't want to offend them by assuming a very low level, but you want to make sure they understand everything.

I know people who have lived in the US for many years. They speak English very well and understand you perfectly. BUT their accents are sometimes very strong. Some people may hear the strong accent and assume that this person doesn't speak good English. You don't want to offend the person by speaking in a simple way, even though they understand perfectly.

Sometimes you meet someone who speaks English with an excellent accent. So you start talking to them in normal English, because you think they speak fluently. But you see that they understand nothing, because although their English has a good accent, their language level is low. You have to slow down and speak in a simpler way.

To avoid causing offense, it is usually best to speak normally to someone until you notice that they don't understand, and then simplify your speech.

My simplified English is:
- slower
- more clearly pronounced ("clothes" and "close" sound the same in my normal accent, but when speaking for foreigners at a basic English level, I enunciate more clearly to differentiate between such words)
- free of idioms (I say what I mean rather than using an idiomatic form; "Are you ready?" instead of "Are you all set?"; "What are you doing?" instead of "What are you up to?", etc)
- easier grammar; not too many complicated verb forms, shorter sentences.
- show numbers on my fingers, not just in my speech. I do this at restaurants where the staff don't speak good English. "Two [holding up two fingers] coffees, please"

If a person truly doesn't understand even the simplified English, and it's important to communicate, I will use broken English. That's a last resort, when there's no other way. "He come already?" rather than the grammatical, "Did he come yet?".

I would like add: Anything what erinja mentioned above needs lots of mental power. An foreigner (in detail tourist) also has to accept, that sometimes Native speaker can not grant someones that "piece" of mental power at this moment. No free mental power available for random matters left. That even needs somebody to keep back, if this situation is very important for the foreigner/Non-native. No Native speaker has an endless pool of mental power. Or better no human can grant this.

I experienced that shortly in France. At the desk they had an electronic count-down message "that desk will close in 10 minutes". Okay, I though, doesn't matter. I only needs information when the next train will leave (transfer between train and bus). But I really had problems to distinct thirteen and thirty inside her French English. She really swallowed the ends of the English words. I was sure, that thirty could not be right. But she said it again and again with some kind of despair at her face. Yes, I know, why I did not request to have let it written? Some wrong understood politness to her English pronouncation I assume. At that situation someones could "explode" I ever try to cool me down "There must be a reason I probably understand later". And, if such matters would not happen, about what somebody wants to talk later?

(Btw, I like France. Its everytime worth an surprise someones not expect. Okay, every Non-native area is. But its such close neighbour.)

erinja:

I know people who have lived in the US for many years. They speak English very well and understand you perfectly. BUT their accents are sometimes very strong.

Dear erinja, there's still one thing which you have to take into account. How shall I put? Well, consider my case. I think I can speak English quite well. I can easily imitate the British English standard at he phonological level (and speak "as if sth stank under my nose") as well as the American English standard (with the "patato in my mouth" just to pass off as a native, but I do not do it... because I do want to sound a little bit different. See? I purposely want to sound different. I just don't want to be "one of you". By speaking with an accent I want to give a hint of my "fremdulaneco". It's a case of self-defense.
This woul never occur to me in the case od E-O. Have you ever considered
that?

Solulo: I purposely want to sound different. I just don't want to be "one of you". By speaking with an accent I want to give a hint of my "fremdulaneco". It's a case of self-defense.
This woul never occur to me in the case od E-O. Have you ever considered that?

I have not considered that. I would never intentionally speak with a foreign accent. I consider it polite to imitate the native accent of a country as closely as possible, to make it easy for them to understand me. Since I am not a native speaker, it will be obvious that I am foreign. Similarly, I speak Esperanto with the best accent I can manage, so that others will understand me easily. It is a way to be polite to others.

But consider this - you will never be "one of us", to use your words. No offense. But almost no one is able to perfectly imitate the accent of a foreign language. Your very best, most perfect imitation of an American or British accent will still sound foreign to a native. Even if you think you have it perfect, you will make a mistake with the pronunciation of a word, or you will misuse an idiom, or say something in a way that isn't normally said. Almost no one is successful in learning English well enough to be mistaken for a native, unless they live in an English-speaking country since childhood. I am sure this is true in Poland as well.

erinja:Almost no one is successful in learning English well enough to be mistaken for a native, unless they live in an English-speaking country since childhood. I am sure this is true in Poland as well.

In German-speaking countries you may be taken only for somebody with another dialect. On TV I recently watched an interview with a Swedish politician and if I hadn’t known that, I’d have said he was from Northern Germany, since he really spoke German very well and with no grammatical errors (he even got the adjectival declensions right, a nightmare for most foreigners).

But I also try to imitate a native accent when speaking a foreign language because I never know how comprehensible my speech is if I don’t.

Thank you, erinja, for a clear explaination of what makes an 'easy English' for you. This is exactly what I wanted to hear from
ceigered. My (from the other side) understanding of simple English is more or less the same.

erinja:
But consider this - you will never be "one of us", to use your words. No offense. But almost no one is able to perfectly imitate the accent of a foreign language.

At SES2011 I met a man from Poland who spoke Russian without even a slightest foreign accent. This is really rare, but not impossible. Also, written language is different from spoken. Russian writer Nabokov wrote a well-known book in English. Did he spoke with accent ? Do you think he was 'one of you' ?