訊息: 76
語言: English
Solulo (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日上午8:43:27
Conrad is a very interesting linguistic case for me. I remember it reading somewhere that when dying he "forgot" his English and switched back to his native Polish.
Solulo (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日上午8:50:47
AlexN:Interesting, and I believe it's true. I wonder if the opposite is ever possible. I met Russians who spoke good Polish but the charming Russian accent always gave them away.
At SES2011 I met a man from Poland who spoke Russian without even a slightest foreign accent. This is really rare, but not impossible.
Why is this so?
AlexN (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日上午9:37:00
Solulo:I do not know, but Wikipedia tells us that Polish is the only Slavic language that has nasal vowels. May be it is because of more difficult phonetics. While Russian has only two major phonetic difficulties: hard R and sound 'Ы'.
I met Russians who spoke good Polish but the charming Russian accent always gave them away.
Why is this so?
sudanglo (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日上午10:30:48
No offense. But almost no one is able to perfectly imitate the accent of a foreign language. Your very best, most perfect imitation of an American or British accent will still sound foreign to a native. Even if you think you have it perfect, you will make a mistake with the pronunciation of a word, or you will misuse an idiom, or say something in a way that isn't normally said. Almost no one is successful in learning English well enough to be mistaken for a native, unless they live in an English-speaking country since childhoodWhen I was a teenager and watched some war film in which the intrepid English hero fooled the Nazi guards by speaking in their own language, I always used to think how implausible that was. Why don't the Germans immediately spot that he is English?
Nowadays, in the UK, there are so many foreign acccents (and so much strange use of the language) that you might encounter from someone who was actually born here, that successfully fooling the officials seems less implausible.
However, when foreigners are interviewed on Radio or Television in news reports, it rarely takes more than a few seconds to hear their foreigness, even if the interviewee is an extremely well educated politician.
This impossibilty of achieving native speaker standard in a foreign national language is, of course, one of the compelling arguments for Esperanto - in Esperantujo we are all foreigners.
erinja (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日下午3:03:54
AlexN:Also, written language is different from spoken. Russian writer Nabokov wrote a well-known book in English. Did he spoke with accent ? Do you think he was 'one of you' ?Nabokov learnt English as a child and attended a British university (Cambridge) but spoke with an obvious foreign accent. I think it's easier to learn the grammar of a language perfectly, than the accent.
I do consider Nabokov to be "one of us". His accent doesn't matter. He was an American citizen, so of course he was "one of us".
Supposing that someone is capable of speaking with a perfect native accent in a language, if that person intentionally speaks with a foreign accent, to me, it is the equivalent of saying, "I am not one of you; I want to ensure that I am not mistaken for you". To me it indicates a scorn for the people of the country. Someone who wishes to emphasize "I am not like you" is excluding himself or herself from "us". Therefore, to me, this person will never be "one of us", because this person sees himself or herself as superior to "us".
For the record, I doubt that Nabokov intentionally spoke with a foreign accent. He grew up in a trilingual household, which included English. I think that by the time he spent significant time in an English-speaking country, his accent was already fixed, having learnt from non-native speakers.
Solulo (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日下午8:44:02
erinja:Superior? Not necesarily. Superior or not but never inferior.
To me it indicates a scorn for the people of the country. Someone who wishes to emphasize "I am not like you" is excluding himself or herself from "us". Therefore, to me, this person will never be "one of us", because this person sees himself or herself as superior to "us".
You know, we, East Europeans ar very touchy about our nationalities. When we (Poles and Hungarians) had our dinasties of kings and queens, you were not existant. I am writing this on purpose because during my 8 months stay behind the Big Water I was somehow indirectly given to understand that I was "inferior". Perhaps I met the wrong people.
Anyway, this problem does not exist in our beloved Esperantujo.
erinja (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月4日下午9:46:32
But when I am abroad, I feel no need to brag about where I came from, or speak with an exaggerated foreign accent. It is obvious that I am foreign as soon as I open my mouth, just as I'm sure it's obvious when you are outside of your country.
If you are so anxious for people to know that you're proud of where you came from, and you wish to make it clear that you aren't a local, aren't you worried that the people will look at you and think that you might be a local person? Maybe when you travel abroad, you should have a t-shirt made with the text "Proud to be Polish" in the local language?
Fortunately for you, you don't have to get one custom-made to visit English-speaking countries; you can easily purchase one online (many Americans are very proud of their ethnic origin, so there is a big market for these shirts)
AlexN (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月5日上午5:47:15
erinja:erinja, when I said "one of you" I did not mean citizenship. I meant only language. Nabokov is clearly "one of us", Russian, because his language, or his writing manner is very special and influentional. Some writers write only text, others are changing the language. These changes are sometimes very small, but noticeable. Examples: Leo Tolstoy was a text-only writer, that's why he is widely known outside Russia. Alexander Pushkin created the modern Russian written language (very little exaggeration).
I do consider Nabokov to be "one of us". His accent doesn't matter. He was an American citizen, so of course he was "one of us".
So the question is: do you see Nabokov's and Konrad's books as just texts (you'd see no difference if these books were translations) or something more ? Do you like their language ? Is it somewhat special ?[/quote]
AlexN (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月5日上午8:17:59
Solulo:There is one thing that I consider very important. This problem does not exist with Esperanto NOT because Esperanto is a constructed language, BUT because Esperantists do not want this problem and prevent it.
Anyway, this problem does not exist in our beloved Esperantujo.
There were constructed languages, created purposely to distinguish speakers from non-speakers.
erinja (顯示個人資料) 2011年10月5日下午3:11:55
AlexN:So the question is: do you see Nabokov's and Konrad's books as just texts (you'd see no difference if these books were translations) or something more ? Do you like their language ? Is it somewhat special ?I have never read a single book by either one of them, so I am not familiar with their language.
I don't know why you are talking about texts or translations. If I love a book, I don't care whether it is a translation or whether it was originally written in a certain language. I don't discriminate.
Anyway, it was Solulo who first said that he does not want to be mistaken for "one of you", and I think that he was not talking about foreign-born authors writing in English.
The phrase was introduced when Solulo mentioned his accent in speaking English. He seems to believe that his English is so perfect that he would be mistaken for a native speaker if he spoke in his "best" accent. It seems to me that he would construe it as an insult if someone would mistake him for anything but Polish, so he tries to make it obvious that he is Polish by intentionally speaks with an accent. Unfortunately for Solulo, English speakers are unlikely to be able to distinguish between a Polish accent and any other Slavic accent, so when they hear him talk, they probably think he's Russian.
When I was standing at a booth at the Universala Kongreso, I was repeatedly asked if I was Polish, and if I was Danish. Good thing I am not Solulo, or else I might have been offended by that, and forced to put on a heavy national accent, so that everyone would know where I came from.