Mesaĝoj: 29
Lingvo: English
Wilhelm (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-11 20:48:04
"Vi manĝis la porkon." = "You ate the pig."
But, how would the following be understood?
"Porkon manĝis."
Would the absence of the subject be understood as an implied "vi", as in:
"(Vi) porkon manĝis." = "You ate the pig."
Or would it be understood as essentially saying:
"The pig is eaten.", the subject not being implied, or maybe it means something or nothing else entirely.
Any clarification would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Vilhelmo.
targanook (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-11 20:52:51
Wilhelm:If I say:I don't understand that. You must supply "mi, vi, li...". Without them the meaning is not clear. If you want "the pig is eaten" use:
"Vi manĝis la porkon." = "You ate the pig."
But, how would the following be understood?
"Porkon manĝis."
Would the absence of the subject be understood as an implied "vi", as in:
"(Vi) porkon manĝis." = "You ate the pig."
Or would it be understood as essentially saying:
"The pig is eaten.", the subject not being implied, or maybe it means something or nothing else entirely.
Any clarification would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Vilhelmo.
oni manĝis la porkon (la porkaĵon)
la porko (la porkaĵo) estas manĝita.
Wilhelm (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-11 22:50:50
targanook:What I was getting at is, for example, when one says:
I don't understand that. You must supply "mi, vi, li...". Without them the meaning is not clear. If you want "the pig is eaten" use:
oni manĝis la porkon (la porkaĵon)
la porko (la porkaĵo) estas manĝita.
"Faru tion"
It is understood that the subject is "vi", "you".
I wanted to know if this could be done in other cases.
"Porkon manĝis."
So, how would this be understood, "oni", "vi" or is it completely ungrammatical?
barat (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-11 22:59:24
Wilhelm:Hello there.targanook:What I was getting at is, for example, when one says:
I don't understand that. You must supply "mi, vi, li...". Without them the meaning is not clear. If you want "the pig is eaten" use:
oni manĝis la porkon (la porkaĵon)
la porko (la porkaĵo) estas manĝita.
"Faru tion"
It is understood that the subject is "vi", "you".
I wanted to know if this could be done in other cases.
"Porkon manĝis."
So, how would this be understood, "oni", "vi" or is it completely ungrammatical?
In esperanto you must supply personal pronouns if the action is to be conected to a person, an animal or object. There are some cases when you might ommit the pronoun, but they have special meaning then:
tondras
pluvas
okazas
In your case, you should say, who ate the pig. So
Oni manĝis la porkon - the pig used to be eaten
vi manĝis la porkon - you ate the pig
shi manĝis la porkon ...
If you say: la porkon manĝis, then the sentence is not complete.
Faru tion - Do it!
But
Li faru tion - let him do it
Ni faru tion - let us do it
...
darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-12 05:46:08
barat:How do you use okazi without a subject?!
okazas
Concerning the original question, the subject can be left out only with certain verbs that just don’t need a subject. Pluvi is an example. In English you say "it is raining", but what does the "it" actually mean? Nothing, it’s just there because in English every sentence needs a subject even if it relates to nothing.
Additionally, with -u verbs in main clauses, you can leave out the subject if it’s vi.
In all other cases you do need a subject. You cannot say *porkon manĝis for "the pig was eaten". If you say it, the natural question would be kiu manĝis porkon?.
barat (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-12 06:19:28
darkweasel:barat:How do you use okazi without a subject?!
okazas
???It is quite usual:
"multfoje okazas, ke..."
"hodiaŭ okazas, ke li ne povas tion fari"
"Okazas, ke ili ne reagas al voĉoj..."
"Kiel okazas, ke vi konas s-ron Slater?"
"... kaj okazas, ke la pliparte serba loĝantaro prezentas"
And standalone?
- ĉu tio estas ebla?
- jes, okazas.
Any more questions?
darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-12 06:51:01
barat:In all of your examples the subject is the ke-subclause.
"multfoje okazas, ke..."
"hodiaŭ okazas, ke li ne povas tion fari"
"Okazas, ke ili ne reagas al voĉoj..."
"Kiel okazas, ke vi konas s-ron Slater?"
"... kaj okazas, ke la pliparte serba loĝantaro prezentas"
barat:OK, such simple abbreviations (leaving out ĝi or tio) occur with every verb, however, if you want to talk very concisely.
And standalone?
- ĉu tio estas ebla?
- jes, okazas.
barat (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-12 07:12:56
darkweasel:...My example was about verbs where you can omit the personal pronoun, not about omitting everything else (mi okazas, vi okazas, li okazas - these are no good in esperanto, but okazas without a pronoun can appear). Please, read it again. This discussion leads us to nowhere.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-12 11:32:07
cFlat7 (Montri la profilon) 2011-oktobro-12 12:59:19
I know that the subject in Esperanto is required as has been pointed out*. But theoretically, if left out, it can often be determined from context. This is done all the time in Japanese. Moreover, if left out, couldn't the convention (theoretically) be that 'oni' is the subject?
La porkon [oni] manĝis.
*Is this from the Fundamento or is it just a 'rule' that has arisen from usage?