Messages : 20
Langue: English
lagwagon555 (Voir le profil) 20 juillet 2007 19:29:05
Today I just was thinking about the -n suffix, and if it feels natural to use it or not. So I wondered if any other languages use anything similar, for distinguishing the object from subject in a sentence? It would seem a bit dificult, as a language would have to be very uniform for it to work (like esperanto). But I might be surprised! Anyone have any answers?
Richard
Hymake (Voir le profil) 20 juillet 2007 20:17:58
lagwagon555:Hey all!1st: I'm Spanish, I'm only 13, so my English isn't perfect at all
Today I just was thinking about the -n suffix, and if it feels natural to use it or not. So I wondered if any other languages use anything similar, for distinguishing the object from subject in a sentence? It would seem a bit dificult, as a language would have to be very uniform for it to work (like esperanto). But I might be surprised! Anyone have any answers?
Richard
2nd: I think it doesn't feel natural to use, because... I really don't know why, but... It couldn't be because all the languages (I don't speak too much languages, but I think so) indicates the object with the word order into the sentence, or with differents words for every subject. Example:
I am not you, because you are like them and I not
They -> Subject
Them -> Object
Or
I -> Subject
Me -> Object
Or, like Japanese, with "particles":
Anokata wa kirei desu (He is handsome)
Tanaka wa anokata (o) desu (Tanaka is he)
I don't know if I have spoken about it with sufficient knowledge
PS Excuse me, my English often has some errors...
mnlg (Voir le profil) 20 juillet 2007 20:30:36
lagwagon555:Today I just was thinking about the -n suffix, and if it feels natural to use it or not. So I wondered if any other languages use anything similarGrammar cases, found for instance in Latin and in other non-indoeuropean languages, are still used in many languages nowadays (Slovenian, German come to mind as very first examples). Possibly the accusative ending is not -n, but in most such languages there is a way to distinguish subject from direct object.
Other languages can get even more complex about this, but I think this would go beyond the scope of your post.
You could notice that -n might very well have been a marker for genitive or for some other case, now surviving only as a leftover within adjectives. E.g., Italian = of Italy; American = of America; Terran = of Terra; etc. More skilled linguists are welcome to refute my hypothesis
orthohawk (Voir le profil) 20 juillet 2007 23:36:54
lagwagon555:Hey all!Are you wondering about denoting a separate accusative? Mr. MNLG stated the case (no pun intended!) very well. If you're wondering about the suffix itself (-n), well, I believe Basque uses a -k in some instances where we would use a direct object. Georgian uses a -ma in somewhat similar circumstanses. Swahili (when denoting the object is felt to be necessary) does so by inserting the agreeing personal object pronoun to match the object noun into the verb. Russian uses the genitive (in masculine animate nouns) and changes the last -a to -u for 2nd class (mostly feminine) nouns.
Today I just was thinking about the -n suffix, and if it feels natural to use it or not. So I wondered if any other languages use anything similar, for distinguishing the object from subject in a sentence? It would seem a bit dificult, as a language would have to be very uniform for it to work (like esperanto). But I might be surprised! Anyone have any answers?
Richard
RiotNrrd (Voir le profil) 21 juillet 2007 01:06:51
"I", "He", "She" all denote subjects.
"Me", "Him", "Her" all denote direct objects.
"I like he" is as incorrect as "Mi ŝatas li". Same with "He likes I". In both cases (heh), the direct object is not in the correct form, even though the word order tips you off as to which is the subject and which is the direct object.
But "I am he" is correct, for the same reasons that the -n is left off nouns in Esperanto that follow "estas" (although in common usage, lots of Americans would probably say "I am him" - incorrectly, though).
The -n marker only feels unnatural for a little while because native English speakers are not accustomed to marking cases that way. Spend some time writing or speaking in Esperanto, and you will reach a point where suddenly it seems completely natural. Really, it's just a matter of practice and getting accustomed to something that isn't a large part of your (our) native language.
EL_NEBULOSO (Voir le profil) 21 juillet 2007 04:48:31
in Latin the accusative is mostly marked with an -m, that's pretty close to the Esperanto -n.
I think that one can get a good feeling for the usage of the -n very quickly, although there are cases in which one has to think about it a bit.
Gerald
Urho (Voir le profil) 21 juillet 2007 07:58:20
mi legis la libroN =>
(minä) luin kirjaN (accusative) = la libro estis legita de mi,
but
(minä) luin kirjaa (partitive) = la libro estis legata de mi.
minä = I
minä luin (< lukea = to read)
kirjan, kirjaa (< kirja = book)
Hymake (Voir le profil) 21 juillet 2007 13:41:52
黄鸡蛋:Yes, I made a mistake, sorry. I'm yet learning Japanese...Hymake:Or, like Japanese, with "particles":You must make a mistake. The second sentence must be
Anokata wa kirei desu (He is handsome)
Tanaka wa anokata (o) desu (Tanaka is he)
Tanaka wa anokata desu
strictly without "o", which is used only for direct objects.
Maybe the following example is better:
Kare wa sakana o tabemashita. (He ate the fish.)
Sakana wa nani o tabemashitaka? (What did the fish eat?)
It seems not to relate to the topic, though.
Thanks ^^
So... exists any language that use any suffix for indicate the accusative or not?
mnlg (Voir le profil) 21 juillet 2007 16:31:16
Hymake:So... exists any language that use any suffix for indicate the accusative or not?Latin (-am, -um, -em, -as, -os), Finnish (-n but only in some cases), Estonian, I think Hungarian too.
Basque has been mentioned and it has a similar mechanism as well but I do not remember about it in full detail.
camiljoe (Voir le profil) 21 juillet 2007 17:31:19