לתוכן העניינים
להגיב

Gender Neutrality...

של Kalantir, 15 באוקטובר 2011

הודעות: 162

שפה: English

Hundies19 (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 17:15:30

"This is very reminiscent of people who think the US constitution is a divine document that MUST not be altered. Well it was and it worked and the founding fathers didn't even have to be resurrected to do it either."

Uh, this is an odd statement to me demando.gif . I've never heard this. The argument is that the Constitution should not be altered (or disobeyed) without going through the legal process. Likewise the poll seems to suggest that most people who speak Esperanto do not want to change it in this way. I actually votes yes though, I don't think it would be a fatal change and it would be logical. however I will certainly respect the will of the Community and the intentions of the Fundamento by principle.

It's always good to discuss the issue though. rideto.gif

RiotNrrd (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 17:17:15

Vestitor:This is very reminiscent of people who think the US constitution is a divine document that MUST not be altered.
No, there is one thing that makes an enormous difference between the US constitution and the Fundamento.

The constitution can be changed.

MiEstasDavid (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 17:23:15

I agree with Vestitor. My opinion is that a language that isn't open to constructive change (note that I said constructive) will slowly but surely become outdated and filled with numerous irregularities. Some of the grammar in Esperanto seems a bit obscure even now but I still like Esperanto because it still holds true to it's goal, being fairly easy to learn.

orthohawk (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 17:26:14

Vestitor:
erinja:
Those other languages are not Esperanto; they lack a foundational document that clearly sets out the basis of the language. Esperanto isn't Esperanto without the Fundamento. The Esperanto-speaking community has agreed upon this.
This is very reminiscent of people who think the US constitution is a divine document that MUST not be altered. Well it was and it worked and the founding fathers didn't even have to be resurrected to do it either.
As an American and a constitutionalist, I have to correct you here. We don't say it MUST NOT be altered. Only followed as PROPERLY ALTERED (with amendments, passed by congress and ratified by the states).

Then you say this: (again):
It's already been proposed and done. And obviously not made to be like English, but clearer French.

Me: OK, you've said this quite a bit but have yet to give any examples of it.

Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 21:31:02

RiotNrrd:
Vestitor:This is very reminiscent of people who think the US constitution is a divine document that MUST not be altered.
No, there is one thing that makes an enormous difference between the US constitution and the Fundamento.

The constitution can be changed.
And in comparison to the US constitution the Fundamento is untouchable? That's surely beyond ludicrous as a statement.

Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 21:54:18

orthohawk:
As an American and a constitutionalist, I have to correct you here. We don't say it MUST NOT be altered. Only followed as PROPERLY ALTERED (with amendments, passed by congress and ratified by the states).

Then you say this: (again):
It's already been proposed and done. And obviously not made to be like English, but clearer French.

Me: OK, you've said this quite a bit but have yet to give any examples of it.
Good. Then (some of) the constitutionalists are more flexible than the fundamento curators. Food for thought eh?

To the second... in all the languages I mentioned the changes are there as actuality, go and find them for yourself. Show me I'm wrong.

RiotNrrd (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 21:54:37

There oughta be a FAQ.

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בדצמבר 2011, 22:13:27

RiotNrrd:There oughta be a FAQ.
Concerning this, there actually is.

Evildela (הצגת פרופיל) 26 בדצמבר 2011, 01:38:57

I am tired of seeing all forums being filled with novices that are continually suggesting improvements. I myself am guilty of this, two weeks after I started learning I made the mistake of thinking something was better, just to find out I was wrong about a year later. Is it possible just to close these threads with a link to a single forum thread or FAQ where all these things can be discussed instead of several threads gong at once. This is a Esperanto LEARNING website, not a REFORMIST website.

erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 26 בדצמבר 2011, 02:37:36

It is very tiresome, isn't it?

Because of the stability offered by the Fundamento, I can go to Taiwan and speak with Taiwanese Esperanto speakers with more clarity than I can speak with native English speakers from other countries. I share a common vocabulary with other Esperanto speakers; with other English speakers, though I'm well-educated, well-read, and well-travelled, I get caught out by false friends and words that unexpectedly don't mean the same as they mean in the US.

The Fundamento is the glue that holds our language together, prevents it from breaking apart into dialects. We as Esperantists say that the language can evolve, new grammatical usage can evolve, new words evolve, new slang evolves, but on these basic principles found in the Fundamento, the buck stops here, we do not change these things. There is a lot of flexibility for evolution within the bounds of the Fundamento. We as Esperanto speakers believe that the Fundamento provides us the unchanging structure necessary to ensure that Esperanto can be spoken and understood by communities worldwide, AND also the flexibility that allows our language to evolve as necessary into the future.

If you don't like it, don't learn Esperanto. Seriously. It gets extremely tiresome for Esperantists to listen to these constant reform proposals, which have no chance for acceptance. If you want to speak your new language based on Esperanto, go right ahead, but don't expect Esperanto speakers to give you any kind of favourable reception to your ideas.

No one goes to a German forum because they want to hear how much better German could be if only certain reforms were made to it. They go to a German forum because they want to learn how to speak German, as it is today.

לראש הדף