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Gender Neutrality...

av Kalantir, 15 oktober 2011

Meddelanden: 162

Språk: English

Kalantir (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 17:59:29

Take the word parent for example. The translation is gepatro which logically makes no sense considering what ge- implies. The only reason it kind of works is because both genders are included when it's pluralized.

@jean-luc
I know tons of people(myself included) who would change English pronunciation and/or spelling if it was within their power.

darkweasel (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 18:38:00

there is no asymmetry. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. with almost all roots esperanto uses -in for females and the adjective "vira" for males. only a few words are inherently male or female. "patro" is an example of a word that refers only to men, so if you're talking about the female equivalent, you have to use "patrino".

however i do support singular use of ge- since it is only a slight shift of meaning, causes no confusion, is immediately comprehensible and is extremely useful.

Kalantir (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 18:47:21

darkweasel:however i do support singular use of ge- since it is only a slight shift of meaning, causes no confusion, is immediately comprehensible and is extremely useful.
If I was not learning Esperanto, but I understood the meaning of both ge- and patro I would expect gepatro to refer to an intersex parent. The only reason I know that it means parent is because I specifically looked it up. I started studying this language because it is intuitive, logical, and consistent. But the lack of gender neutrality is none of those things.

Also, regarding the usage of vir- From what I've read, vir- is used almost exclusively for animals.

RiotNrrd (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 19:04:23

Kalantir:Also, regarding the usage of vir- From what I've read, vir- is used almost exclusively for animals.
As was stated earlier, most of the words dealing with family members (patro, frato, etc.) are male by default, thus making "vir" redundant for those words. "Virpatro", for example, isn't something you'd ordinarily see unless you REALLY wanted to emphasize his maleness (and probably not even then).

So, yes, "vir" is used for animals most of the time, because it doesn't make sense to tack it onto words that already indicate males.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that Esperanto is meant to be a "perfect" or "logical" language. It is not. It is just meant to be an easy language. Which it succeeds at quite well.

Kalantir (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 19:26:02

RiotNrrd:As was stated earlier, most of the words dealing with family members (patro, frato, etc.) are male by default, thus making "vir" redundant for those words. "Virpatro", for example, isn't something you'd ordinarily see unless you REALLY wanted to emphasize his maleness (and probably not even then).

So, yes, "vir" is used for animals most of the time, because it doesn't make sense to tack it onto words that already indicate males.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that Esperanto is meant to be a "perfect" or "logical" language. It is not. It is just meant to be an easy language. Which it succeeds at quite well.
Ok, but lets apply this to words that are not masculine by default. One of the things I love about Esperanto is how descriptive a single word can be. Lets take the word amiko for example. I can say amiko, or if I want to be more specific, I can specify the gender of my friend by saying amikino. Can I then say viramiko to specify my friend is male? Even if I can, don't you think amikicxo flows a bit better?

darkweasel (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 19:36:36

Kalantir:
If I was not learning Esperanto, but I understood the meaning of both ge- and patro I would expect gepatro to refer to an intersex parent.
i'm almost sure 90% of esperantists would understand that it's meant to be the singular of "gepatroj". ridulo.gif

and yes, you can say viramiko, though i would prefer an adjective: vira amiko (since viramiko might be understood as "a friend of a man").

barat (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 19:51:51

jean-luc:All the other points (accusative, eurocentric vocabulary, etc..) are (good or bad) characteristics of the language. I know nobody who would ask English to change its pronunciation or Chinese to change its writing, so I don't understand why someone would ask Eo to be changed (and still be called esperanto).
This is because many beginners still believe that Esperanto is not a real language but some unfinished project that they can tinker with. Fortunately most of their proposals land in a trash-basket where they should (not my opinion - Don Harlow's, but I agree with him on the matter).

Kalantir (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 19:57:33

Well, it's become pretty clear that most of you don't think this is something worth changing, but do you at least acknowledge my points to be valid on some level?

UUano (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 20:35:42

Kalantir:...do you at least acknowledge my points to be valid on some level?
I do. But I still consider myself a beginner with no real strident ideology when it comes to the language. I also don't have a problem learning natural languages, so a few idiosyncrasies in a constructed language don't really bother me too much.

Chainy (Visa profilen) 15 oktober 2011 20:37:15

Kalantir:If I was not learning Esperanto, but I understood the meaning of both ge- and patro I would expect gepatro to refer to an intersex parent.
Yes, in theory you are right, but most people are happy to accept 'gepatro' to mean 'parent'. And even those that aren't, they understand it perfectly well in the context.

So, for an intersex parent, I suppose we'd have to say 'interseksa gepatro'.

An intersexual person = interseksulo

Hermaphrodite = ambaŭseksulo/hermafrodito

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