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Explaining Esperanto to Nesamideanoj

de BlackOtaku, 29 de outubro de 2011

Mensagens: 80

Idioma: English

erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 12:17:55

Whom is a direct or indirect object. It's usually set off with "to" when it's an indirect object. Esperanto doesn't mark indirect objects with -n (but it frequently sets off indirect objects with "al").

Whom do you see?
Kiun vi vidas?

To whom did you give a gift?
Al kiu vi donis donacon?

Hauxkins (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:17:33

I really hate the term "samideano". It's right up there with "comrade" in terms of nailing your flag to the mast. And what a horrible idea! One of the best things about Esperanto is being able to communicate directly with people who have different cultures and different ideas about things! If we all thought the same there'd be no point in communicating at all, except maybe to form a mutual back-slapping society..

While I'm on my soapbox, I think "La Espero" should be left alone too. I think these vestigial elements left over from the times of big social engineering projects really put people off.

*steps off soapbox*

Anyway, yes, explaining Esperanto to other people can be a nightmare and always seems to require endless justification, unlike learning any other language on earth. "Cool, but pointless" is the among the nicer responses I've had. I like to say it has a similar number of speakers to Welsh. I'm probably in the right ballpark and I think it encourages anyone who takes Welsh seriously to think of Esperanto in a similar way. This is probably not tremendously helpful outside Wales though..

qwertz (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:30:45

BlackOtaku:
How do you all explain Esperanto to the people in your life? How do people usually react to the idea of it?
I do it this way:

I most start describing the character, that its an constructed foreign language which has very less linguistic ballast caused by history. That of course follows up clarification about that historical reasons (irregularity in grammar etc). I also mention that there excists an CEFR-guideline (Refereckadro) of Esperanto, which most (European) foreign language learner well know. I try to stay to linguistic discussion as much I can serve that. I.e. one letter = one sound, which English language doesn't serves and Spanish seems to serve. (I'm not a linguist) If I notice some interest I tell them lernu.net webpage for more deep information. Mostly I don't meet folks which try to spread their extrem viewpoints (=political movement to rescue the world) using Esperanto language. So I don't see a need to mention something about Esperanto being an international language. Most folks I met are satisfied learning English in the way of being used for international communication. Even that folks with extreme viewpoints, because they only want to push their extreme ideas forward as fast as possible. At this point I could mention the ideas of Malouf report (pdf), which is translated to all official EU-languages. Furthermore I mention that I took part at 4 Esperanto Youth meeting and what happend during the traveling to it. (trajnokaravano) I only try to talk about Esperanto matters which I have personal experience of. And of course I try to explain the current status of Esperanto music. Not to forget, I try to give other persons time for reasoning if Esperanto could be their kind of thing or not. I strictly try to avoid to act like a kind of "Esperanto-Bur" the way to aquire new member of the Esperanto community.

Doing this "discussion strategy chain" until now I didn't get strong negative feedback. Okay, something I hear "Oh, my god: Esperanto". But it doesn't go the way that someones gets crazy. I would say the most feedback is interest in esperanto as an effective language and interest to find out oneselves if I told them correctly. Using: lernu.net. okulumo.gif

lgg (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:32:06

The thing is when you say to somebody about 'international' language with whooping 2000000 speakers (twice as less as population of tiny Georgia) they will be regarding you with suspicion.
Then you'll surprize them with the fact that it's not free language, and that their experience will be formed by people who usurped the right to form that language, and that they will always be just subjects to the freedom of bureaucrats to take into Esperanto whichever junk they want to.
Of course people do not want to feel themselves as second-class citizens before people who has no right to be first-class, and propagating Esperanto this way is dead end.

UUano (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:33:57

Whenever I mention Esperanto in conversation, I get a "What?!?" from folks who've never heard of it before, and a "Why?!?" from linguists and teachers of other, 'natural' languages.

To the first, I usually say something akin to:
Gilberto_:a "synthetic language (sounds better than fake or invented) that was made to avoid communication problems, to be able to communicate with other human beings in an easy way and that it has helped a lot in some conlfits
To the second, I usually start with "Why not?!?" and move on to something like:
sudanglo:Esperanto is the most interesting linguistic experiment ever undertaken by mankind.
They usually don't buy that answer, and change the subject. ploro.gif Oh well!

UUano (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:42:39

Hauxkins:I really hate the term "samideano". It's right up there with "comrade" in terms of nailing your flag to the mast. And what a horrible idea! One of the best things about Esperanto is being able to communicate directly with people who have different cultures and different ideas about things!
I also have issues with the term, which is why I don't use it. When I see it in print, in conjures up images of strict adherence to ideology and dogma, something I personally do not tolerate.

However, when I've heard it spoken by acquaintances of mine, it sounds more like "buddy" than "comrade", so I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate it.

I guess in those instances, the ideo just signifies (to me) the choice to learn Esperanto, and that mental translation works for me most of the time.

erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:49:39

I try to keep my answer as brief as possible. Brief and matter of fact. And after telling them the bare details, if they still seem interested, I mention how it has benefited me personally.

I don't want to sound crazy so I don't say too much. I feel like the more detail you give, the more crazy you sound, and the more 'ammunition' you give them to take the mickey out of you.

I never mention the stuff about "samideano" and "La Espero". It makes us look silly.

qwertz (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 14:55:55

Hauxkins:
I really hate the term "samideano". It's right up there with "comrade" in terms of nailing your flag to the mast. And what a horrible idea!
I first heard "samideano" by Igor (Eterne rima k.t.p.). I believe he tried to bring together folks who see Esperanto like a hobby and Esperanto-burs. In my opinion that doesn't work very well due to extreme contrary Esperanto motivation viewpoints.

Eterne rima: Samideano | Interview with Igor (Eterne rima k.t.p.)

Could you specify that more in detail? "And what a horrible idea!" What kind of horror does "samideano" and "comrade" trigger?

Hauxkins:
While I'm on my soapbox, I think "La Espero" should be left alone too. I think these vestigial elements left over from the times of big social engineering projects really put people off.
LE - La Pafklik-ece

Hauxkins:
I like to say it has a similar number of speakers to Welsh. I'm probably in the right ballpark and I think it encourages anyone who takes Welsh seriously to think of Esperanto in a similar way. This is probably not tremendously helpful outside Wales though.
Yes, but it would be useful to motivate the creation of an local Esperanto neigbourhood inside Wales.

RiotNrrd (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 16:17:57

When people ask me why I learned it, I usually say that I always wanted to be bilingual, but after trying both German and French for many years and finding them much too hard, I decided to learn the easiest language I could find instead. The easiest one I could find was Esperanto, so that's the one I picked, and that's how I've achieved my goal of becoming bilingual.

Describing it as "fake" is nonsense. It is obviously not fake. A fake language would be something that only sounds like a language, but that doesn't communicate anything. "Klaatu barada nikto" is what the alien said in the movie "The Day The Earth Stood Still". Just some sounds the writer came up with, but that don't mean anything. THAT'S fake. Esperanto is not.

No one claims that American Sign Language, the language deaf (American) people use to communicate with, is "fake". Yet, it is just as artificial as Esperanto is.

If you need to describe Esperanto, say that it is simply a tool that was developed from European languages as a way for people who don't speak the same language to be able to easily communicate with one another. Since it's so easy to learn, why NOT learn it?

If the people you are talking to are science fiction fans, you can mention that it is also the pan-galactic language spoken by the characters in Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" series of books. If they're not SF fans, though, I wouldn't bother.

BlackOtaku (Mostrar o perfil) 29 de outubro de 2011 17:13:51

Oh great Lord Hammercy. Obviously I greatly underestimated the connotations of 'samideano'... shoko.gif I'll avoid using it from now on.

On the two million speakers statistic, It's widely cited. I don't know personally it's authenticity, but I certainly didn't just pull it out of my small intestine. Here's it on the official site of Esperanto-USA: http://www.esperanto-usa.org/en/node/70

"Fake": It's very clear to me that Esperanto is not a fake language in any way, hence the quotes. Unfortunately, most people seem to perceive it as that, and I find it very hard to change that perception. Most of the time I just don't bother.

I'll add more thoughts when I fully wake up.

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