Meddelanden: 14
Språk: English
Echo49 (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 12:09:17
Kiam ĉiu konscios pri la utileco de Esperanto, tiam komenciĝos nova epoko en la historio de la civilizacio. Ni ne dubas, ke venos tempo kiam ĉiu knabo kaj ĉiu knabino lernos ĉi tiun belan lingvon en la lernejo. Tiam niaj lernantoj povos interŝanĝi leterojn kun amikoj en aliaj landoj kie oni parolas diversajn lingvojn. Poste ili interŝanĝos ankaŭ vizitojn, kaj ili povos bonege paroli unu kun la alia, ĉar ili havos komunan lingvon.Should the bolded parts be in accusative case -n? How should "unu kun la alia" be conjugated?
horsto (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 12:23:42
unu kun la alia means:
unu povas paroli kun la alia
lgg (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 12:28:54
(S)Nova epoko (V)komencigxos;
(S)Tempo (V) venos;
(S)Ili (V)povos ... paroli (Adv)Unu kun la alia.
Only direct objects and adverbials of targeted movement are in accusative.
Echo49 (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 14:34:50
Perhaps it's due to the lack of obvious distinction in English between nouns as subject and object, but the position of the noun intuitively makes me think of it as the subject or the object. For example, even after I translated it to English I didn't think of those nouns as subjects until I realised you can put it in front of the verb (like lgg did).
For example,
Ni ne dubas, ke venos tempo kiam ...translates to
We don't doubt that there will come a time when ...which, to me, intuitively makes "time" sound like the object.
Instead,
We don't doubt that a time will come when ...makes "time" sound intuitively like the subject.
... Actually, after writing this, I'm beginning to wonder whether "time" is the subject or the object in the phrase "there will come a time".
erinja (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 19:03:16
In English, we also sometimes vary word order for emphasis!
Another clue is that "come" is not transitive - it isn't an action that one thing can do to another. Therefore "come" NEVER has an object.
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 19:35:51
Of course, if you turn it round and say 'a time will come', then clearly 'time' is the subject.
However, in Esperanto, it doesn't matter whether you say 'venos tempo' or 'tempo venos', 'tempo' is still the subject. The reason for inverting the usual order in the sentence in this passage is to put the correlative 'kiam' close to what it relates to.
I suspect that it is much easier for the brain to process a sentence like 'necesas decidi kiu gajnis' than 'decidi kiu gajnis, necesas'.
English deals with such sentences by starting them with a dummy subject.
darkweasel (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 20:06:39
sudanglo:I'm not sure about that, Erinja - isn't 'there' a dummy subject, like 'it' in 'it is raining?In my opinion, not really.
I guess - and I am sure that ceigered will correct me on this - that constructions like "there will come a time" come from an earlier stage of English when it was still a V2 language like German is today (so the verb had to stand at the second position in the sentence). Anyway, isn’t "there" an adverb? And can an adverb even logically be a subject, even a dummy subject?
Echo49 (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 23:14:17
erinja:Another clue is that "come" is not transitive - it isn't an action that one thing can do to another. Therefore "come" NEVER has an object.Is it true to say that this applies to all -iĝi verbs?
horsto (Visa profilen) 1 november 2011 23:31:48
Echo49:You are right. There are verbs which never can have an object, for example all verbs with the suffix "iĝ".erinja:Another clue is that "come" is not transitive - it isn't an action that one thing can do to another. Therefore "come" NEVER has an object.Is it true to say that this applies to all -iĝi verbs?
Echo49 (Visa profilen) 3 november 2011 13:02:36
lgg:adverbials of targeted movement are in accusative.Is this an example? Why is it that only the first instance has -n?
Kiam ili poste revenas hejmen, ili ne sole mem parolas pli pura, sed ili alportas modelon de bona parolado al tiuj, kiuj restas hejme.