I have a question about translating prayers into Esperanto. I've been thinking about this since at least the time I became aware that the Pope gives a blessing in Esperanto once a year.

In English, it is often customary to to use slightly archaic word forms to evoke a sense of majesty when reciting formal prayers. The English half of my Siddur does this, the (Anglican) Book of Common Prayer does this, etc.

Is there any stylistic parallel in Esperanto to the English language custom of using archaic speech in prayers? If not, how would you go about sounding slightly archaic/majestic in the context of formal prayers?

Esperanto is a young language and typically uses a simpler mode of expression. So I don't think there is any "archaic speech" for prayer, although Esperanto versions of traditional prayers might use their modes of expression.

Older Esperanto sometimes uses grammatical forms in a way that would be unusual today. But in my opinion, writing that way in a religious text wouldn't be useful.

I've found that it's not necessarily the words or the grammar that makes something sound dignified and religious, but the poetic expressions. We don't speak in such a poetic way in our everyday life, so using these expressions, with modern grammar, makes something sound appropriately religious.

For example, in colloquial speech you might say "Help me to talk nicely". A biblical text might say "make the words sweet in my mouth", which has modern grammar but isn't something you'd say. Similarly, people are unlikely to say "dolĉigu la vortojn en mia buŝo" in Esperanto, though the grammar is fully modern.

The siddur I've been using lately follows this principle; it doesn't use any archaic English, but it still sounds very dignified and traditional in its wording (certainly no "And Moses said, "Hey, what's up, guys?")

eojeff:
I've been thinking about this since at least the time I became aware that the Pope gives a blessing in Esperanto once a year.

Yes, he does it regulary. I.e. http://www.ikue.org/pasko2010/pasko2010.htm

According this information (25.12.2008)

de: Papst Johannes Paul II. hatte im Jahre 1994 zum ersten Mal die päpstlichen Weihnachtsgrüße auch in Esperanto gesprochen.
en: In 1994 pope Johannes Paul II first time did use Esperanto to give a Christmas blessing.

de: Seither wird Esperanto alljährlich zu Weihnachten und zu Ostern beim Segen des Papstes benutzt.
en: Since that time Esperanto is used every year for give blessing at Christmas and Easter.

qwertz:de: Seither wird Esperanto alljährlich zu Weihnachten und zu Ostern beim Segen des Papstes benutzt.
en: Since that time Esperanto is used every year for give blessing at Christmas and Easter.

Just curious, does the german literally translate to something like "Since-then, Esperanto has been used all-year-ly for Christmas and for Easter by the blessings of the Pope"? The original German seems much more flexible, as if it lets the reader come to a conclusion on the meaning rather than being super-explicit.

Erinja:"And Moses said, "Hey, what's up, guys?"

Jethro: "Yo Musha wassup? We was just talkin' bout you and how you showed them 'gyptians how ta roll!"
Moses: "Mah?"

Contrary to popular belief Moses did not break the original ten commandments in anger over the golden calf incident, but by hitting his people over the head for talkin' smack.

erinja:
I've found that it's not necessarily the words or the grammar that makes something sound dignified and religious, but the poetic expressions. We don't speak in such a poetic way in our everyday life, so using these expressions, with modern grammar, makes something sound appropriately religious.

For example, in colloquial speech you might say "Help me to talk nicely". A biblical text might say "make the words sweet in my mouth", which has modern grammar but isn't something you'd say. Similarly, people are unlikely to say "dolĉigu la vortojn en mia buŝo" in Esperanto, though the grammar is fully modern.

I believe that most religious core books like the Bible are intented to be studied for years to be understood. So they are not intented to be read rapidly.

I once tried to read the Bible. But especially the Bible seems to be full of absoluteness. There are a lot of nested sentences, which everytime contains some true absoluteness. I assume someones has to accept the full bible. I.e. its not possible to go trough the Bible and exclude phrases of that religious core book. So, I failed any motivation to read further.

Mormons seems to have an interesting "wrapping" of ideas mentioned at the Bible. Even if I dislike their male-centric view they act very tolerant. Especially talking to them during their missionary work at pedestrian zones/shopping malls could be interesting. They have an 2 year abroad idea where somebody has to learn the foreign language where he will do Mormon "internship self-finding"(Sorry I don't know the correct phrase of that). I only read some pagse of their Book of Mormon. If I remember right, its good to read.

I also read Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse which gives an interesting insight to Buddhism. I like that Buddhism ideas because it seems to give only some religious core signs and let someones freedom to build its own personal religion based at own experiences.

Next time I will try to read some Bahá'í, which presented to me in Australia very tolerate and interreligious.

Apart of religion I would like to read Kosmos by Alexander von Humboldt. Until know I only read some parts mentioned at other books. It seems to be a very nice adventure report and used a lot of old-fashing/archaic German to describe adventure experiences in nature. I.e. the Anakonda snake and other fascinating dschungel experiences. Old-German often written very German:"blumig"/bloomy/poetic. Something similar like erinja mentioned above for biblical texts.

Btw, does there excists idiomatic expressions at religion field only religous people would understand? I.e. in case of me like an non-religous human I wouldn't get the relationship instantly "make the words sweet in my mouth" (biblical text) = "Help me to talk nicely". Or regarding Ĉu vortoj povas vundi?:

qwertz:

dombola:
Ofte nepripensita parolo vundas kiel glavo;
Sed la lango de saĝuloj sanigas.
Sen.12,18

Mi ne tute komprenas "Sed la lango de saĝuloj sanigas.". Ĉu estas, kiel, ke persono kiu pripensas sian parolon, ke tio persono meritus multa de laŭdo?

ceigered:

qwertz:
de: Seither wird Esperanto alljährlich zu Weihnachten und zu Ostern beim Segen des Papstes benutzt.
en: Since that time Esperanto is used every year for give blessing at Christmas and Easter.

Just curious, does the german literally translate to something like "Since-then, Esperanto has been used all-year-ly for Christmas and for Easter by the blessings of the Pope"? The original German seems much more flexible, as if it lets the reader come to a conclusion on the meaning rather than being super-explicit.

I'm not a professional interpreter/translater. So I don't know precisly in detail how to convey an idea of the German native language into the ideas of English native language. I don't understand how my English translation did restrict the original German phrase.

"Seither" joints to parts of sentence before: "Jahr(e) 1994". Since "1994" "her(kommend)". Since the point "1994" in the past comming up to "today"-point now. "Seither" points to regularity starting from a point in the past. Its still ongoing action like a kind of tradition. Just to clarify that German phrase: Christmas and Easter only happens one time per year.

(Modern German is "Jahr_ 1994" without "e". Jahre sounds somewhat archaic)

de: Papst Johannes Paul II. hatte im Jahre 1994* zum ersten Mal die päpstlichen Weihnachtsgrüße auch in Esperanto gesprochen.
de: Seither* wird Esperanto alljährlich zu Weihnachten und zu Ostern beim Segen des Papstes benutzt.

Regarding archaic words. Due that law texts also contains lot of history, law texts contain a lot of archaic words, too. Law texts try to remove every free interpretation of word concepts. I.e. word concept "citizenship". Until some years ago everybody born inside (Western-)Germany - or Germany as is - didn't get automatically German citizenship. I have to do some research, but I assume that was different handeled by law in DDR (East-Germany). That seems to have releationships or view of law of some German law in the past. I forgot which one. Due to that character law text are somewhat difficult to understand for laymen.

qwertz:I'm not a professional interpreter/translater. So I don't know precisly in detail how to convey an idea of the German native language into the ideas of English native language. I don't understand how my English translation did restrict the original German phrase.

"Seither" joints to parts of sentence before: "Jahr(e) 1994". Since "1994" "her(kommend)". Since the point "1994" in the past comming up to "today"-point now. "Seither" points to regularity starting from a point in the past. Its still ongoing action like a kind of tradition. Just to clarify that German phrase: Christmas and Easter only happens one time per year.

(Modern German is "Jahr_ 1994" without "e". Jahre sounds somewhat archaic)

de: Papst Johannes Paul II. hatte im Jahre 1994* zum ersten Mal die päpstlichen Weihnachtsgrüße auch in Esperanto gesprochen.
de: Seither* wird Esperanto alljährlich zu Weihnachten und zu Ostern beim Segen des Papstes benutzt.

Thanks for your lengthly explanation qwertz! I'm studying a tiny bit of german "off the clock" out of curiosity, and this helps me get my head around the grammar side of things, which I am starting to see Esperanto resemble a bit strangely, ignoring all those vestigial case markings .

My pronunciation probably still sounds strange, but I can't help but prefer the alveolar forward-of-tongue roll and I still can't pronounce the "eh" and "uh" as Germans do without making it either "äh"/"ie" and a sort of "u/ü" hybrid sound, so oh well, I'll sound like a Anglo-Dutch-Norwegian Esperantist trying to learn German

ceigered:
My pronunciation probably still sounds strange, but I can't help but prefer the alveolar forward-of-tongue roll and I still can't pronounce the "eh" and "uh" as Germans do without making it either "äh"/"ie" and a sort of "u/ü" hybrid sound, so oh well, I'll sound like a Anglo-Dutch-Norwegian Esperantist trying to learn German

Must be very funny sounding Anglo-Dutch-Norwegian Esperanto accent. I like accents very much as far it doesn't hinder understanding. Could be also some advantage of Esperanto: Holding personal identity by using someones native language accents and still be capable to "produce" spoken language outcome which can be understood. That's cool.