alternate words for "boy" and "son"
ca, kivuye
Ubutumwa 44
ururimi: English
tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 13:24:41
sudanglo:If men commonly gave birth there might be a use for the word 'virido', but since they don't, the more logical use is by analogy with virbovo.Note that -ID does not necessarily show that someone/thing was given birth to by that which is shown by the root. You can have "reĝido", and figurative uses like "landido", for example. Child and offspring are not exactly equal.
erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 14:40:09
sudanglo:What does the word tablido meanWhen two tabloj get together, and they love each other very much, you might end up with a tablido.
More seriously, I agree that even unusual words could be acceptable in Esperanto when the logical sense is clear.
To me, this discussion proves that the sense of a word like "virido" is not necessarily clear. Depending on how it's read, it could be:
- the offspring of a human man
- a male offspring of any life form
- a literary term describing any human being (think "children of man" in English)
If I were talking to a person and they used the word "virido", if the person spoke the language poorly, I might think that they meant a son but didn't know the word "filo". If they spoke the language well, I would assume that they were aware of the word "filo" and chose not to use it for some reason; therefore I would assume that "virido" was their way to get across some more unusual meaning (like the literary "children of man")
ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 16:09:45
hebda999:Well, considering languages don't follow logic, Esperanto included, I have to disagree. There's no rules though, as Miland, Sudanglo and Erinja have added, it's just knowing what will work and what won't.ceigered:Actually you are limited to "allowed" forms, if we take into account that use is extremely important. If no one uses a term, you can rest assured it's probably not going to be understood the way you want it to.And, please, tell me, where I can find the rules of this allowedness? I repeat - if something is LOGICAL and SENSIBLE you CAN use it, even if nobody else does. If they do not understand you, it means:
1) they are not sensible or logical beings - find other
2) you are not sensible or logical being - improve yourself by hard training
I personally don't think "patrido" or "virido" really work or make sense to me - I mean, they bring up the basic concepts of "parent/man" and "offspring" respectively, but I can't say I can put any form of relation between the concepts. I can't tell whether "virido" is "vira ido" or "ido de viro" or "ido de vireco" or whatever else.
So, as I said before, if you're using a novel compound that works with ambiguous roots like these, then I don't think it's possible to put a "100% understandable to everyone!" label on them
@ Tommjames:
What's a landido? I'm going for something between a naturalist and a plot of land separated from a once larger plot, or a wooly dodo (possibly found on a fictional landmass between NZ and Antarctica)
tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 17:22:15
@ Tommjames: What's a landido?landido.
ceigered:I can't tell whether "virido" is "vira ido" or "ido de viro" or "ido de vireco" or whatever else.In my view the interpretations of "vira ido" and "ido de vireco" are no more than theoretical possibilities; not illogical from the viewpoint of "simpla kunmetado", but contrary to the norms of the language which would have "ido de viro" as the logical meaning, even if that idea is in itself somewhat tenuous.
As a literary device I like erinja's "children of man". That's the kind of thing I can just about plausibly imagine it being used for.
sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 20:10:19
Well, considering languages don't follow logic, Esperanto includedYou are such a bad boy Ceiger.
You know full well that you cannot impose all the characteristics of national languages on Esperanto - as you also know of my penchant for scolding those of a linguistic bent who assume, incorrectly, that what happens in the national languages must also happen in Esperanto.
Actually, if there were no applicable logical criteria to be used in deciding the meaning of an Esperanto compound, then the discussion of this thread could not sensibly take place.
There would be no reasonable points of view about what 'virido' should mean.
There are some illogical compounds in Esperanto sanctioned by long usage (such as 'rideto' for smile rather than chuckle) but there aren't many.
Did you know that historically 'bovoviro' was used for a bull (even by Uncle Zam), but was discarded by the community in preference for the form 'virbovo', because logically bovoviro could be something like a centaur.
A nice case of logic winning over usage.
Srcoco (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 21:11:58
Once, someone said me that words are wrong, but I ignored him xD
darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 10 Munyonyo 2011 21:13:32
sudanglo:or usage determined by logic.
A nice case of logic winning over usage.
cFlat7 (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 11 Munyonyo 2011 00:26:08
sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 11 Munyonyo 2011 10:31:03
As regards 'malĝis', this seems to go too far beyond the norms, as prepositions are not usually converted into opposites in Esperanto with 'mal'.
And, of course, 'malĝis' could be something like 'hello again' or 'before I go' said when returning shortly after you have 'ĝis-ed someone.
I have never heard anybody saying 'malsur' for 'sub', and if I did, I would assume they were trying to drive a distinction between 'sub and 'malsur'.
Personally, whilst I have no trouble understanding 'ekde', I can't quite get my head around 'malĝis'
Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 11 Munyonyo 2011 11:34:14
Srcoco:I always say "maladiaŭ" and "malsaluton". So am I wrong to do this?Yes, because Saluton and Adiaŭ are not direct opposites.
If you do it as a joke that is one thing, but to keep Esperanto as an effective tool for communication, it is best to avoid unusual forms.