Съобщения: 44
Език: English
erinja (Покажи профила) 11 ноември 2011, 14:16:57
In some languages, the same word is used to say both "hello" and "goodbye". "Ciao" and "shalom" are examples. Although it has been the custom in Esperanto to use "saluton" only for hello, and not for goodbye, I believe that the base meaning of "saluton" would permit it to be used as a goodbye.
Certainly when we talk about "salutoj" (greetings) we are including hellos, goodbyes, good wishes for birthdays, etc.
"malsaluton" would therefore be the opposite of a greeting. Or perhaps the opposite of giving good wishes - expressing your bad wishes, dislike, and disrespect to someone?
tommjames (Покажи профила) 11 ноември 2011, 14:38:53
erinja:Although it has been the custom in Esperanto to use "saluton" only for hello, and not for goodbye, I believe that the base meaning of "saluton" would permit it to be used as a goodbye.Actually I've heard saluton being used for goodbye. I can't quite remember where it was though. Perhaps from the film Angoroj or some video on YouTube linked to from the forum. Maybe darkweasel will remember as I seem to recall discussing it with him in IRC?
darkweasel (Покажи профила) 11 ноември 2011, 15:02:29
tommjames: Maybe darkweasel will remember as I seem to recall discussing it with him in IRC?hm, no, i don't recall this discussion at all. however i can take a look into my logs when i get home.
cFlat7 (Покажи профила) 11 ноември 2011, 15:18:54
cFlat7:I also like 'malĝis' for that (which I have also used for 'ekde').I used it as a joke, but with some corresponding meaning:
Malĝis (ekde) la ekvido.
tommjames (Покажи профила) 11 ноември 2011, 15:51:38
darkweasel:hm, no, i don't recallCould have been someone else.
Anyway I found where I heard it, it was from Angoroj, where Henriko (I think that's his name) is leaving with Irena and says "saluton" to Karleto.
sudanglo (Покажи профила) 12 ноември 2011, 09:50:24
Also, if someone I didn't wish to engage with, approached me at a congress with a 'saluton' and I replied 'malsaluton', perhaps also striding off, this might be an effective rebuff.
The expression, use in the right context would certainly seem to be rather curt or brusque - and we need more ways of being rude in Esperanto.
To express the idea of taking one's leave with a suitable polite formula, you could use 'forsaluti'
ceigered (Покажи профила) 14 ноември 2011, 09:11:10
sudanglo:Oh well, if you're so right I suggest you stop calling Esperanto Esperanto, because it's impossible for a language to hope!Well, considering languages don't follow logic, Esperanto includedYou are such a bad boy Ceiger.
You know full well that you cannot impose all the characteristics of national languages on Esperanto - as you also know of my penchant for scolding those of a linguistic bent who assume, incorrectly, that what happens in the national languages must also happen in Esperanto.
Actually, if there were no applicable logical criteria to be used in deciding the meaning of an Esperanto compound, then the discussion of this thread could not sensibly take place.
Languages DON'T rely on logic. If they did, they'd suck, except for logicians, although they'd probably find a way to even then disagree over whether this fictional logical Esperanto was truly logical.
Languages are based on pragmatism, which may use logical constructs if they are pragmatically compatible with the human mind of the speaker. But logic is NOT the essence of Esperanto.
To which I say "Ĝis, mia nemeso".
(Which is isn't based on logic because I haven't stated what I'm doing, and until what I'm doing it. Rather, it's based on pragmatism, and I'm assuming you're intelligent enough to use logical deduction amongst other processes to figure out what I mean, although I'm primarily relying on your memory to recall the usage of "ĝis" and what it means to you if someone says "ĝis" to you).
EDIT: Of course, if you continue to define Esperanto as logical, which you're free to do, I then have to assume that you are referring to a looser interpretation of "logical". In which case, you're still wrong because other languages are still in that case as logical as Esperanto but using different "logics".
sudanglo (Покажи профила) 14 ноември 2011, 11:11:38
But this is patently not the case.
In the natural languages usage is King. But in deciding whether something is good Esperanto, other criteria are brought into play.
ceigered (Покажи профила) 16 ноември 2011, 11:27:00
sudanglo:In the natural languages usage is King. But in deciding whether something is good Esperanto, other criteria are brought into play.So please explain to me why I can't use "antaŭ ke" but I can use "antaŭ ol", yet for "post", the preferred term is "post ke"?
Or in context of the original question, why I can't just go around using "ido" instead of "infanto", and so forth?
And for a final set of examples, why would it be easier on myself for me to use "malvarma" instead of "frida" (and conversely why I should say "fridujo" instead of "malvarmujo"), "mallonga" instead of "kurta", or why malmola is accepted in some circles or contexts, while firma isn't (a situation mirrored in left/right, with some preferring "maldekstra" and a smaller group preferring "liva").
Obviously the evidence shows that usage does still play a large part in Esperanto, and for comprehension's sake, and in order to maintain a normal conversation, it's best that we maintain the usage of words according to how the language community accepts them unless we want to sound different for whatever reason we have (like my preference for non-mal "opposite" pairs representing part of my philosophy in regards to communication).
As for natural languages, the difference between them and Esperanto in this regard is that it appears many of their dictionaries play a subservient role to the users (which is actually wrong in some cases, as blind faith to the dictionary that some hold shows), while for Esperantists often the dictionaries, among with grammars and descriptions of the language, are seen as having authority over the speaker's usage, even if in reality it doesn't work out like that belief, if "komputilo" is anything to go by.
erinja (Покажи профила) 16 ноември 2011, 13:53:48
...but "post ol" is also correct (though rarely used), and "antaŭ kiam" is equally correct (and also rarely used).
Infanto isn't a word. Infano is a child, a young person. Ido is an offspring. An "ido" could be an adult, but an "infano" is only a child. In the Bible, we talk about the "Israelidoj", the children of Israel, but we are not talking about literal children; the group of "israelidoj" includes both adults and children.