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To Tio or not to Tio.

de sudanglo, 14 noiembrie 2011

Contribuții/Mesaje: 25

Limbă: English

erinja (Arată profil) 14 noiembrie 2011, 23:17:18

sudanglo:Thank you for your kind message in red admin, but I can understand replies in Esperanto and I wouldn't want speakers of other languages to feel inhibited from replying because their English wasn't upto writing a reply.

Fom an outsiders point of view it must seem very strange that in the English forum contributors regularly come from all over Europe and are forced to write their replies in broken English, rather than in the international (and reputedly very easy to read and write) language, Esperanto.
super-griek, however, speaks beautiful English (or at least writes beautiful English), so I think he simply forgot the language of this forum.

From an outsider's point of view, if you want to discuss things in Esperanto, you should go to an Esperanto-language forum. The only reason why we even have an English forum is to help beginners who don't yet feel comfortable asking in Esperanto.

sudanglo (Arată profil) 15 noiembrie 2011, 10:57:19

What term do the linguists use to describe the tranformation of 'Did you phone the police? into 'Was it you who phoned the police?' - a transformation which I suspect is possible in most European languages.

I thought I might look up in PAG what Waringhien and co. had to say on how Esperanto handles this, but couldn't think what to search for in the index.

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Erinja, although the original purpose of the ELF might have been to answer beginners' questions from 'anglalingvanoj', any statistical analysis of its typical content now, would show that it has become additionally an international forum on a wide range of topics.

Whether Supergriek's command of written English is excellent or not is besides the point. I could understand his reply in Esperanto (and I launched the thread). On the other hand there a so many replies in general in the ELF which are written in impenetrable English by 'nedenaskuloj'.

Furthermore, there seems to me to be something a little presumptious about posing questions in the 'Konsultejo' about translations of English usage, as though one is entitled to assume that a world-wide audience of Esperanto-phones would naturally understand English.

erinja (Arată profil) 15 noiembrie 2011, 14:15:33

However we know for a fact that native English speakers read the Esperanto forums, so you could reasonably assume that someone English-speaking is reading.

Furthermore, although YOU personally could understand an Esperanto response, the point of an online forum (rather than private messaging) is that other people can read the responses and learn. Other people who may possibly be reading the English forum because they don't speak good Esperanto.

You personally speak French, but that doesn't mean that super-griek should write his response to you in French in this forum, just because you are able to understand it.

Altebrilas (Arată profil) 15 noiembrie 2011, 22:33:01

I'll end up believing that language problems are doomed to have no solution malgajo.gif

sudanglo (Arată profil) 16 noiembrie 2011, 10:28:28

Phooey, Erinja.

Hands up, any reader of this thread who didn't understand Supergriek's message in Esperanto and was frustrated by there being no translation into English.

Courage, mon ami, Altebrilas. All language problems in the future will be solved by technology.

mihxil (Arată profil) 16 noiembrie 2011, 11:22:56

sudanglo:Phooey, Erinja.

Hands up, any reader of this thread who didn't understand Supergriek's message in Esperanto and was frustrated by there being no translation into English.
I wasn't. But one could wonder though, why the question was raised in english in the first place.

ceigered (Arată profil) 16 noiembrie 2011, 12:08:25

sudanglo:What term do the linguists use to describe the tranformation of 'Did you phone the police? into 'Was it you who phoned the police?' - a transformation which I suspect is possible in most European languages.
I don't think there's a term for it - one simply asks someone if they rung the police, the other assumes that SOMEONE has rung the police, and the speaker wants to know who.

In a situation where they might overlap, the latter would show confidence or could be used to make someone who didn't ring the police feel suspected.

So I don't think there's anything special about the two phrases, and I'd assume you'd just say:
"Ĉu vi telefonis la policon/Ĉu vi estas la ulo kiu telefonis la policon?", with the same effect in English.

Sudanglo:Hands up, any reader of this thread who didn't understand Supergriek's message in Esperanto and was frustrated by there being no translation into English.
I couldn't give a flying !#@$, to be a little "down to earth" about it rido.gif

I'm honestly for the nat-lang forums being bilingual, but that might be due to my experience with other forums and how they work, and finding the change in atmosphere minimal.

The North American Ido Society's forums last time I checked pretty much asked that you stuck to using Ido, for contrast!

Chainy (Arată profil) 16 noiembrie 2011, 12:09:30

mihxil:But one could wonder though, why the question was raised in english in the first place.
Yes, indeed. It's much better to place this kind of question in the Esperanto-language forum if you want to get advice from people that actually know Esperanto pretty well.

In the Esperanto-language section there is a bigger chance of hearing what people from various parts of the world have to say on the matter. This is far more interesting than just hearing the opinions of native English speakers, which is generally the case in the English-language forum.

The English language forum should be reserved for absolute beginner questions. Once you're past this stage, then I think you can get your meaning across and ask questions in the Esperanto-language forum.

Chainy (Arată profil) 16 noiembrie 2011, 12:13:40

sudanglo:But in Esperanto would you say: 'Ĉu tio estas vi, Johano?' or 'Ĉu estas vi, Johano?'
I would go for the second version. It doesn't seem necessary to add 'tio'.

Chainy (Arată profil) 16 noiembrie 2011, 12:27:26

sudanglo:What term do the linguists use to describe the tranformation of 'Did you phone the police? into 'Was it you who phoned the police?' - a transformation which I suspect is possible in most European languages.

I thought I might look up in PAG what Waringhien and co. had to say on how Esperanto handles this, but couldn't think what to search for in the index.
PAG calls it "Reliefigo de frazelementoj". See section 274, page 365.

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