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של sudanglo, 2 בדצמבר 2011

הודעות: 71

שפה: English

cFlat7 (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בדצמבר 2011, 15:02:23

In this matter I would assume the "grammarians" are just trying to avoid possible confusion. If a root can change its natural "classification" by context then doesn't that lead to a degree of uncertainty? A new learner would have an additional thing to watch out for. And what seems obvious in context for someone (e.g. a native English speaker) might be very confusing for someone else coming from another language (e.g. a Japanese native speaker).

If a root retains its classification no matter where it appears then someone who encounters a new context for the first time can be fairly certain of being able to figure out the meaning.

That being said however, I understand your arguments regarding 'mastr'. What is the solution?

erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בדצמבר 2011, 17:10:25

Context matters in language.

Does the word kolego mean kol/eg/o (a big neck) or koleg/o (a colleague)? Context will tell us. In the case of mastering the accusative, the context made it obvious that it was referring to mastery of a skill.

If I had to guess, I would say that this would be one of those instances where you'd say, go ahead and do it in colloquial speech, but writing a formal essay, use "nemastrado" instead of "ne-mastro".

It's similar to the conversation I once had with a member of the Academy about the verb "veki", which is transitive. "Ĉu vi vekas?" means "Do you awaken [someone]?". But this Academy member told me that, practically speaking, if you want to ask someone, in the middle of the night, "Are you awake?", you would be much more inclined to say "Ĉu vi estas veka?", rather than the correct (but lengthy) "Ĉu vi estas vekiĝinta?"

(the other correct option would be "Ĉu vi maldormas?")

Sometimes we don't speak with absolute grammatical perfection in colloquial speech, and "nemastro" might be one of those instances.

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בדצמבר 2011, 17:39:37

erinja:But this Academy member told me that, practically speaking, if you want to ask someone, in the middle of the night, "Are you awake?", you would be much more inclined to say "Ĉu vi estas veka?", rather than the correct (but lengthy) "Ĉu vi estas vekiĝinta?"
Because veka is one of the adjectives that refer to a quality despite the root being verbal.

BTW, personally I don’t like nemastro as a noun denoting an action.

sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בדצמבר 2011, 21:20:11

Cflat, the solution is to have a grammatical theory which accounts for how Esperanto actually works, rather than one which whilst working in the bulk of cases doesn't cover every aspect of usage.

This only produces tensions, as the student of Esperanto is tempted to accommodate his/her (in this case) perfectly intelligible usage to the theory, or to (defensively) invoke an idea of colloquial v formally correct usage.

Actually, there is no corresponding structure (un-mastery) in English which would make the ne-mastro of this sentence more readily intelligible to the native speaker of English. In English the idea would have to be rendered somewhat circumlocutionarily as something like 'I noticed his lack of command of the accusative, or his failure to have achieved mastery of the accusative'.

By the way, Erinja, good, and by no means isolated, example of how context matters.

Why doesn't the giraffe have to work so hard now at the office - ĉar li havas kolegon.

I can't remember now, Darkweasel. Did you also not like 'Kio estas via nomo'? Anyway thanks for posting the reference to adjectives referring to a quality despite the root being verbal.

Of course, Esperanto is not strait-jacketed by the standard usage of the native speaker and allows a certain flexibilty of expression, which may or may not be influenced by patterns in the mother tongue of the speaker. One can always say 'Mi rimarkis, ke li ankoraŭ ne mastris la akuzativon'.

Edit: But there is a very satisfying economomy of expression in 'Mi rimarkis lian malesperigan ne-mastron de la akuzativo.

erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בדצמבר 2011, 21:44:18

sudanglo:Actually, there is no corresponding structure (un-mastery) in English
"non-mastery" has quite a few hits on Google, and I think it would be understood by most native English speakers. It certainly isn't nearly as common as "mastery", of course.
Why doesn't the giraffe have to work so hard now at the office - ĉar li havas kolegon.
I know this joke but I learned it a bit differently. "Why is a giraffe never alone? Ĉar li havas kolegon"

sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בדצמבר 2011, 21:55:12

Yes, that's it Erinja. I remembered being once told the joke by John Wells at a British Congress, but couldn't remember the exact form.

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בדצמבר 2011, 06:16:26

sudanglo:
I can't remember now, Darkweasel. Did you also not like 'Kio estas via nomo'?
I said nothing against it.

UUano (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בדצמבר 2011, 16:01:36

I have only cursorily skimmed this thread...

And I only have one question:

Are you using "ne-mastro" to mean "nemajstreco"?

Thanks!

UUano (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בדצמבר 2011, 16:05:19

UUano:I have only cursorily skimmed this thread...

And I only have one question:

Are you using "ne-mastro" to mean "nemajstreco"?

Thanks!
Further - is there a difference between mastr* and majstr*? They don't feel synonymous to me...

Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בדצמבר 2011, 18:39:21

UUano:..is there a difference between mastr* and majstr*?
In Wells we have
majstr/o master(-craftsman); maestro; Master
mastr/o master (of a house, of servants etc); ~-i dominate; master (a subject); ~-umi keep house, manage (household etc)

So the first is like an honorific; majstra grado means "Master's degree". The second is associated with actual domination or command, though the latter can be used metaphorically, as in mastering a subject.

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