Príspevky: 58
Jazyk: English
ceigered (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 1:59:14
TatuLe:It seems to me that the volition in "would" is only historical, in most sentences. It can be used together with subjects that cannot 'want' anything, like in "Without the bed this room would look too empty", or "A vacation would be nice".Yeah, more or less, but "shall" ("should" an exception) is pretty much just as historical.
I can't really argue against you about the conditional meaning being implied/grammatical, since as a native English speaker, what you think is by definition correct
There's an old "rule" that you shouldn't use "shall" for anyone except for "I" and "we", and you should use "will" for everyone else (except in questions, and it gets reversed in emphatic usage). I don't think anyone follows it anymore and we all use "will" or the short form of both of the verbs (-'ll).
The reason for that usage was that you shouldn't use the idea of "ought to" for other people except when it's important, since that's sort of imposing and rude, and that "will" is much more polite since you're not assuming that they have some sort of moral obligation to do something and only are doing it out of their own volition (if you reckon they *had* to do something, you'd use "shall" or "must")
On the other hand, you'd want to look like you something's important that you *have* to do it, so you'd use "shall" to show that (and then you'd use "will" to show that you not only feel obliged but you now *want* to do something as well!)
As a result they're sort of on equal terms with each other where they're still used that is, since Americans appear to only use "should" nowadays.
Sorry if I rambled on too much, this stuff interests me (too much
) 
sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 12:11:05
Obviously one should use 'ŝudi' to translate all of the following:
I am upset that you should think I did it on purpose.
Should the phone go, take a message.
I should like to have studied medicine.
I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.
You shouldn't smoke so much.
Donniedillon (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 15:23:41
sudanglo:Obviously one should use 'ŝudi' to translate all of the following:These are all very British turns of phrase except for the last one. In the American usage that I am used to the word should is almost always used as a directive and so I would not have thought to use ŝudi for any of these phrases.
sudanglo:I am upset that you should think I did it on purpose.I would have used eblas.
sudanglo: I should like to have studied medicine.Again, eblas would have been my first thought.
sudanglo: Should the phone go, take a message.Se seems like an obvious choice to me.
sudanglo:I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.This is just a very British construction that I would be very unlikely to use but I would probably use eblas in that I am afraid someone might be hurt.
sudanglo:You shouldn't smoke so much.Here I would have gone for devus.
This is not to say that your use of ŝudi would be incorrect, just that it might not be obvious to everyone.
erinja (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 17:58:53
Donniedillon:How would you use "eblas" for this example, and for the following examples where you said you'd use "eblas"?sudanglo:I am upset that you should think I did it on purpose.I would have used eblas.
I'd use the -u ending to translate this. Many instances of "should" would get translated with -u. It makes sense because in British usage, the word "should" is often used in subjunctive-type situations, and we use -u for a subjunctive-type form in Esperanto.sudanglo:I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.This is just a very British construction that I would be very unlikely to use but I would probably use eblas in that I am afraid someone might be hurt.
I'd use -u here. "Vi ne fumu tiel multe". But devus would also work.sudanglo:You shouldn't smoke so much.Here I would have gone for devus.
This is not to say that your use of ŝudi would be incorrect, just that it might not be obvious to everyone.If even native English speakers can't agree on how to use the English word "should", then why should we expect the rest of the world to create an Esperanto word ŝudi and use it correctly? It seems obvious to me that even native English speakers couldn't agree on how to use this theoretical word ŝudi correctly.
As good a case as any for not introducing this unnecessary and needlessly confusing word!
Donniedillon (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 20:00:38
I am upset that you should think I did it on purpose.
Mi konsterniĝas ĉar vi eblus pensus ke mi faris ĝin cele.
I should like to have studied medicine.
Mi eblus ŝatis studi medicinon.
I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.
Mi timiĝas ke iu eblus vundigus.
Please feel free to correct my grammar.
erinja (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 20:54:22
So your sentences read:
I am upset that you would be possible would think that I did it aimed-ly.
I would be possible liked to study medicine.
I am frightened that someone would be possible would hurt somebody.
I'd render your sentences (in correct grammar) as:
Mi konsterniĝas ke vi pensus ke mi intence faris tion.
Mi estus ŝatinta studi medicinon. (or: ŝatintus, instead of estus ŝatinta, for the people who prefer that)
Mi zorgis ke neniu vundiĝu.
In general, a thing eblas (a thing is possible) but it doesn't make sense to say "a person [eblas]", because "a person is possible" simply doesn't make sense.
I think the word you're looking for was perhaps "maybe" - "eble". That is, "Mi eble ŝatintus studi medicinon" (Maybe I would have liked to study medicine)
sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 21:04:29
I suppose I've got to supply translations now
Donniedillon:1. I am upset that you should think I did it on purpose.1. Konsternas min, ke vi povas pensi ke mi intence faris tion. (also povis pensi and possibly povu pensi)
Mi konsterniĝas ĉar vi eblus pensus ke mi faris ĝin cele.
2.I should like to have studied medicine.
Mi eblus ŝatis studi medicinon.
3.I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.
Mi timiĝas ke iu eblus vundigus.
Please feel free to correct my grammar.
2. Mi volonte estus studinta medicinon. or, Mi ŝatus esti studinta medicinon.
3. Mi tre deziris ke neniu vundiĝu.
It's troubling that Americans should have so much difficulty with the Queen's English.
Donniedillon (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 21:39:27
sudanglo, I actually have quite a soft spot for the Queen's English and have many pleasant memories of my time living across the pond while studying abroad. I lived there for a bit less than a year but it was long enough to realize that we are in fact two nations divided by a common language.
cFlat7 (Zobraziť profil) 7. decembra 2011 22:08:53
sudanglo:It's troubling that Americans should have so much difficulty with the Queen's English.This leads to a question that came to me and for which an answer may be difficult to find:
Was this UK "overloaded" usage of 'should' present for a long time (i.e. back to around the North American colonization, circa 1700)? Did the colonists drop this usage over time (and for what reason)? Or did the Brits just pick it up since 1700 (and for what reason)?
P.S. Here in Canada we share many of the UK spellings and such but on the 'should' usage, I think we are closer to the Americans.
Vestitor (Zobraziť profil) 8. decembra 2011 0:46:35
The number of people you'll hear say "I should like a cup of tea..." is very small. I don't care where in England.
I would like... or I'd like... is now average English, even in England. And even then you're lucky to get that level of general linguistic politeness. "I want..." is more likely.
"Should" has some extra nuance. And it's not always a synonym for "would", like e.g "Should you accept my proposal, then..." Meaning if you were to..., were you to...
The problem is that would and should, although they are related, have an unclear relationship and usage.
Perhaps the lesson is to think, as much as possible, in Esperanto when writing/speaking Esperanto. In fact whatever the language, always working through translation from a language with a different structure leads to needless and confusing complications. Thinking according to the rules of the target language always leads to better control.
IMO of course.