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"Should have"

글쓴이: brodicius, 2011년 12월 5일

글: 58

언어: English

erinja (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오전 1:52:08

"I should like a cup of tea" is rare, but I should think (ha!) that it would be common to use "I should think ..." in the UK.

I use "should" a lot, probably halfway between UK and US usage. "I should hope so!", "I should think that...", etc. It's a distinctly different meaning from "I would hope so!", so "would" really does not substitute in that case.

Funny, comments about level of politeness. One thing I love about the UK is the constant use of pleases and thank you's. British people thank one another much more than Americans do (maybe excessively in some people's opinions), and I like it.

Vestitor (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오전 9:27:07

I went home to England for a visit this summer after 8 years and the first thing that struck me, even in the airport, was the 'please' and 'thankyou'. Something I hadn't noticed as much before.

UUano (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오후 3:21:37

One of the more exciting, if unexpected, aspects of studying Esperanto for me is learning more about all the varieties of English that exist. Having many British friends, and due to the availability of BBC programming, I am familiar with British English more than Australian (certainly) and even Canadian varieties. I suppose that these broad, and sometimes not so insignificant differences are as good a reason as any not to see Esperanto as some foreign rendering of the English language and to use it as it is. Please alert me if I do so!

Having said all that, here's my take on sudanglo's phrases (first rendered into American English):
sudanglo:
I am upset that you should think I did it on purpose.
I am upset that you would think I did it on purpose. Ĝenas min, ke vi pensus ke mi intence faris tion.
Should the phone go, take a message.
If the phone rings, [please] take a message. Se la telefono sonos/tintigos, bonvolu preni mesaĝon.

OR - if giving general instructions:
When the phone rings, take a message.
Kiam la telefono sonas/tintigas, tiam vi prenu mesaĝon.
I should like to have studied medicine.
I would have liked to study medicine. Mi estus ŝatanta studi medicinon.

OR (depending on context, and rather whimsically)- I would have preferred studying medicine. Mi estus preferinta studi medicinon.
I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.
I was anxious that someone would get hurt.
Mi sentis min zorgplena ke iu estu ofendita/vundita.

(however - I'm not too happy with this. I think the original implies a desire to prevent the hurt rather than an apprehension that hurt might occur. Perhaps [/i]Mi volis ke neniu estu vundita/ofendita is more suitable?)
You shouldn't smoke so much.
[/quote]This needs no change in American English, and I would render it thus in Esperanto:

Vi ne fumu.

I don't think the "so much" adds any real meaning, and would probably just be included so as not to sound authoritarian in the "suggestion" that one stop smoking. But if you want to keep it in, I like erinja's 'vi ne fumu tiel multe'. (I started to translate it as "vi ne fumu tiom", but that sounds like a recommendation that someone smoke less...or maybe even more!)

UUano (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오후 3:25:16

cFlat7:Was this UK "overloaded" usage of 'should' present for a long time (i.e. back to around the North American colonization, circa 1700)? Did the colonists drop this usage over time (and for what reason)? Or did the Brits just pick it up since 1700 (and for what reason)?
Fascinating question! Recalls the difference between Canadian French(es) and Parisian.

Anyone know the answer?

UUano (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오후 3:27:25

sudanglo:Hoisted by my own petard!

...

1. Konsternas min, ke vi povas pensi ke mi intence faris tion. (also povis pensi and possibly povu pensi)

2. Mi volonte estus studinta medicinon. or, Mi ŝatus esti studinta medicinon.

3. Mi tre deziris ke neniu vundiĝu.
Not sure how I missed your translations of your own phrases...sorry! sal.gif

erinja (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오후 4:29:49

UUano:Se la telefono sonos/tintigos, bonvolu preni mesaĝon.
I use sonori when talking about a telephone ringing.
I would have liked to study medicine. Mi estus ŝatanta studi medicinon.
I think you meant to say "estus ŝatinta"; "estus ŝatanta" is "would be liking", not "would have liked".
I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.
I was anxious that someone would get hurt.
Mi sentis min zorgplena ke iu estu ofendita/vundita.
[/quote]Your Esperanto is fine but your UK to US translation leaves something to be desired lango.gif

I'd render it as "I was worried that someone would get hurt" in American English.

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It's interesting that you've noted how much you've learned about other varieties of English, through Esperanto. Americans don't think of themselves as isolated, but I think that we are more isolated than we think. I think that having a (more or less) common language is a bit deceptive. Culturally, we think that we're more similar to Brits and Australians than we really are. The differences are highlighted around the holiday season. I doubt that most Americans would know what a Christmas pudding is (or what it contains), and a Christmas panto would be an entirely foreign concept. (puddings in general, both traditional and modern, seem not to move easily from the UK to the US - most Americans would never have heard of treacle sponge, banoffee pie, Victoria sponge, sticky toffee pudding, Bakewell tarts, Eton mess, etc)

UUano (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오후 6:01:25

erinja:
UUano:Se la telefono sonos/tintigos, bonvolu preni mesaĝon.
I use sonori when talking about a telephone ringing.
I would have liked to study medicine. Mi estus ŝatanta studi medicinon.
I think you meant to say "estus ŝatinta"; "estus ŝatanta" is "would be liking", not "would have liked".
I was anxious that nobody should be hurt.
I was anxious that someone would get hurt.
Mi sentis min zorgplena ke iu estu ofendita/vundita.
Your Esperanto is fine but your UK to US translation leaves something to be desired lango.gif

I'd render it as "I was worried that someone would get hurt" in American English.

-------

It's interesting that you've noted how much you've learned about other varieties of English, through Esperanto. Americans don't think of themselves as isolated, but I think that we are more isolated than we think. I think that having a (more or less) common language is a bit deceptive. Culturally, we think that we're more similar to Brits and Australians than we really are. The differences are highlighted around the holiday season. I doubt that most Americans would know what a Christmas pudding is (or what it contains), and a Christmas panto would be an entirely foreign concept. (puddings in general, both traditional and modern, seem not to move easily from the UK to the US - most Americans would never have heard of treacle sponge, banoffee pie, Victoria sponge, sticky toffee pudding, Bakewell tarts, Eton mess, etc)
Thanks! Ditto everything.

Vestitor (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 8일 오후 11:16:37

erinja:Culturally, we think that we're more similar to Brits and Australians than we really are.
As observed by Oscar Wilde in the Canterville Ghost:
Wilde:"Indeed, in many respects, she was quite English, and was an excellent example of the fact that we have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language."
Usually misquoted and paraphrased as "Britain and America are two countries divided by a common language".

I tried to find a way to link this with relevance to Esperanto, but failed.

sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 9일 오전 9:57:55

While we are on the subject of 'should', I'd like to hear your views on the subject of should v. supposed to.

How would you translate:

The European central bank should do what central banks are supposed to do and become a lender of last resort.

Also what tense would you use for:

Not long to wait. A bus should be along in the next few minutes.

sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 9일 오전 10:13:42

UUano, the should in should the phone go, take a message. is not fully captured by 'se' or 'if'.

The idea is that you don't expect anybody to ring in your absence.

In Esperanto I might say 'Okaze ke iu telefonos, kion mi ne atendas, tiam faru noton por mi' - prenu mesaĝon would seem to be OK also as French uses the same construction (prendre message)

Or you could say 'En la neverŝajna kazo ke ....', or 'Ŝajne neniu telefonos sed se jes, tiam....

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