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"Should have"

от brodicius, 5 декабря 2011 г.

Сообщений: 58

Язык: English

erinja (Показать профиль) 10 декабря 2011 г., 20:41:50

Chainy:How about taking a look at the Esperanto sentences that I and others have suggested?
Vestitor is a complete newbie here and doesn't speak any Esperanto yet, so he isn't in a position to offer any suggestions regarding the nuances of Esperanto grammar.

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For what it's worth, in 99% of cases, it doesn't turn into an endless loop of "How do I say this in Esperanto?"

I'm a tutor on this site so I tend to field a lot of questions, but I've had very, very few students who seemed to come to me with a lot of "How do you say..." questions.

Most of my students have a couple of "How do you say" situations that they're wondering about, but most of those involve learning grammatical patterns that they can generalize. Those patterns aren't always easily taught in lernu's courses, which are not written specifically for English speakers. "How do I word [this format of sentence or question] in Esperanto?" is a reasonable question to me, or the occasional question about a turn of phrase that can't easily be looked up in a dictionary.

You try to give the answer to the question, and with the answer, you give the learner the tools for finding the answer on their own next time, whether it's guidance for how to express yourself in a foreign language (like "don't translate English word for word; think of the meaning, rather than the words, then say what you mean"), or useful learning resources, like grammar guides such as PMEG.

Vestitor (Показать профиль) 10 декабря 2011 г., 21:26:49

As a matter of fact I'm only a newbie here in the sense that I newly signed up, but I'm 2/3 through the TY Esperanto book and try to do as much as I can in-between long working days. And previously I'd been learning Interlingua, so I'm not green to this game.

It seems to me that the general principle of immersion is a sound and proven method to become proficient in any language (as was suggested by yourself Erinja in the other thread), and I don't see much mileage in playing the trump card of: 'I'm an advanced Esperantist so my word is law'.

Esperanto is another language, not a special sort of sorcery. And if the principle works for every other language I think it likely it would for Esperanto too.
Of course I accept there's no loss, and some gain, in working out expression between two (or more) languages, but it's simply not how to attain proficiency in a target language. Picking over the little peculiarities of e.g. English and trying to recreate them in Esperanto. If anything it does Esperanto a disservice.

The last quote cited by you Chainy is only a summary of what I already said. But clearly it's not right when it comes from me.

Vestitor (Показать профиль) 10 декабря 2011 г., 21:55:26

Chainy:
I can't see anyone using that argument.
Of course not.
Funny how the idea sums it up perfectly from one quarter, but is irrelevant from another.

Chainy:The main issue is that there was no point in you even starting this whole debate off. If you don't like the topic of this thread, then don't participate in it. Your comments are only a distraction to the actual purpose of this thread.
Rubbish, the observation is clearly relevant to the entire purpose. I'm not labouring under the delusion of trying to force people under pain of death to stop translating between Eo-Eng.

So okay, go back to it and I'll keep my trap shut about it.

darkweasel (Показать профиль) 10 декабря 2011 г., 22:12:46

Vestitor:
Chainy:
I can't see anyone using that argument.
Of course not.
well, I can...

Wilhelm (Показать профиль) 10 декабря 2011 г., 22:18:06

In my opinion (which could be wrong), "I should have done that" is best expressed as:

"Mi farintu tion."

qwertz (Показать профиль) 11 декабря 2011 г., 10:34:25

Vestitor:... and I don't see much mileage in playing the trump card of: 'I'm an advanced Esperantist so my word is law'.
We are all students. We are all teachers. | 2011-12-03 21:22:29

I assume that you could different interpreted hints of advanced Esperanto speakers. Different interpreting I somewhat see like that sender tries to communicate an intention but audience interprets an different intention. Neither sender nor receiver did make an communication mistake. Of course that possible conflicts excists. I understand "I demand being full accepted inside community"- intention behind your reclaim. But that friendly nevertheless resolute hints by experienced Esperanto speakers seems to be no attempts to alterigi/defeat(?) you (Swiss German: "bodigen"). Means that tinglers(?) doesn't downgrade your personal foreign language expertise.

Maybe that could put confusion out of that small communication trouble. Hopefully I met the correct English words regarding that issue.

sudanglo (Показать профиль) 11 декабря 2011 г., 10:41:24

Esperanto is another language ... And if a/the principle works for every other language I think it likely it would for Esperanto too
It is a common viewpoint that Esperanto must reflect the patterns and phenomena that can be observed in respect of national languages.

However, this takes no account of the special circumstances of Esperanto (not shared with the national languages), nor of the particular traditions of the user community.

Esperanto is a second language for everybody in a community of speakers with different mother tongues. It exists for a particular purpose, and has been developed from a designed framework.

These factors set it apart from other (ie natural) languages.

Though, obviously some things true of other languages are also true of Esperanto.

sudanglo (Показать профиль) 11 декабря 2011 г., 11:02:13

Vestitor, as a matter of historical fact, a major driving force in the development of Esperanto has been the wish to translate this or that idea, or distinction, from this or that national language.

This process of development is ongoing, even if many issues have been thoroughly thrashed out and a consensus achieved that (1) it is not appropriate for some distinction to be rendered in Esperanto or (2) that X provides the best solution.

A similar level of debate does not occur with the national languages.

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