Mesaĝoj: 81
Lingvo: English
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 13:07:47
No doubt some of you will already have read 'In the Land of Invented Languages'. I have only just received my copy through the local library.
On a brief perusal, I think that the author has not treated Esperanto unfairly, apart from some silliness about the prospect of Esperanto losing the accusative.
This is based, I presume, on a study of how a handful of children of Esperantist parents speak the language. But of course this is irrelevant to the language.
But it pains me to see Esperantists treated alongside the weirdos, fantasists and dreamers who have indulged in other artificial languages (actually language projects).
There is not much recognition in Okrent's book that the Esperantists constitute a serious political movement.
She does not appear to discuss in much detail that the Esperantists would see that the widespread adoption of some national language as the lingua franca imposes an unwarranted burden on a large percentage of the world's population - in short is unfair.
Nor, that for general educational purposes (not to meet purely academic and specific career needs) it would make more sense for schools to teach Esperanto rather than to force pupils to sweat through the higgledy-piggledy terrain of an irregularity-ridden grammar, a sea of idiomatic usages and the alien landscape of a foreign phonology.
For the Esperanto movement to be more widely respected, we must insist on an appropriate recognition of the gulf between us and the language hobbyists, eccentrics and dreamers.
On a brief perusal, I think that the author has not treated Esperanto unfairly, apart from some silliness about the prospect of Esperanto losing the accusative.
This is based, I presume, on a study of how a handful of children of Esperantist parents speak the language. But of course this is irrelevant to the language.
But it pains me to see Esperantists treated alongside the weirdos, fantasists and dreamers who have indulged in other artificial languages (actually language projects).
There is not much recognition in Okrent's book that the Esperantists constitute a serious political movement.
She does not appear to discuss in much detail that the Esperantists would see that the widespread adoption of some national language as the lingua franca imposes an unwarranted burden on a large percentage of the world's population - in short is unfair.
Nor, that for general educational purposes (not to meet purely academic and specific career needs) it would make more sense for schools to teach Esperanto rather than to force pupils to sweat through the higgledy-piggledy terrain of an irregularity-ridden grammar, a sea of idiomatic usages and the alien landscape of a foreign phonology.
For the Esperanto movement to be more widely respected, we must insist on an appropriate recognition of the gulf between us and the language hobbyists, eccentrics and dreamers.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 14:37:34
I haven't read Arika's book, but I attended her talk at the US Landa Kongreso a couple of years ago. She went to the trouble of writing a short piece in Esperanto to start off her talk, before continuing in English, and she was very respectful to the whole thing.
Obviously she isn't an Esperantist, and her book isn't going to give all of the Esperantist talking points. But I think it's practically miraculous that her treatment of the topic was as favorable as it was. When you go to a large Esperanto event, you see *so many* weird people. Or maybe they look normal but then when you talk to them, you think "What planet is this person living on?"
It's hard to see Esperanto as a serious political movement, or as differing greatly from various constructed language projects when you meet with some of its speakers.
It's not that easy to distinguish between an Esperantist all decked out in Green Star gear, berating a hapless shop clerk for speaking to a foreign tourist in English, and a Klingon speaker in full Klingon gear.
At least the Klingon enthusiast probably doesn't go around pressuring others to learn Klingon.
The thing about the accusative is uninformed silliness, I agree. There's no evidence to support the assertion that the accusative is dying out.
Obviously she isn't an Esperantist, and her book isn't going to give all of the Esperantist talking points. But I think it's practically miraculous that her treatment of the topic was as favorable as it was. When you go to a large Esperanto event, you see *so many* weird people. Or maybe they look normal but then when you talk to them, you think "What planet is this person living on?"
It's hard to see Esperanto as a serious political movement, or as differing greatly from various constructed language projects when you meet with some of its speakers.
It's not that easy to distinguish between an Esperantist all decked out in Green Star gear, berating a hapless shop clerk for speaking to a foreign tourist in English, and a Klingon speaker in full Klingon gear.
At least the Klingon enthusiast probably doesn't go around pressuring others to learn Klingon.
The thing about the accusative is uninformed silliness, I agree. There's no evidence to support the assertion that the accusative is dying out.
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 14:57:56
erinja:It's not that easy to distinguish between an Esperantist all decked out in Green Star gear, berating a hapless shop clerk for speaking to a foreign tourist in English, and a Klingon speaker in full Klingon gear.That's a wonderful image, with the shop assistant wondering what on earth is going on!
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 15:02:01
sudanglo:weirdos fantasists dreamers hobbyists eccentricsThere are many who actually view Esperantists in that way. "Esperantists constitute a serious political movement" is a perhaps a statement that would elicit a judgment along that line.
You would, presumably, find such mocking sentiments offensive, and if you didn't you would certainly have the right to. But please bear in mind that those who have partaken of linguistic pursuits other than the one you favour have no less a right to be treated with respect.
sudanglo:She does not appear to discuss [..] that it would make more sense for schools to teach EsperantoThis is your opinion, and I'm not especially inclined to disagree. But as a criticism of the book it's just begging the question. A discussion of whether Esperanto would make more sense in schools may well have been appropriate, however.
sudanglo:For the Esperanto movement to be more widely respected, we must insist on an appropriate recognition of the gulf between us and the language hobbyists, eccentrics and dreamers.Better to point out the gulf between the actual languages I think (if it can be called that). The difference between Esperantists and "Klingonists" seems not that great to me, and in any case mostly irrelevant.
Ironchef (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 15:23:15
sudanglo:But it pains me to see Esperantists treated alongside the weirdos, fantasists and dreamers who have indulged in other artificial languages (actually language projects) [..edit..] For the Esperanto movement to be more widely respected, we must insist on an appropriate recognition of the gulf between us and the language hobbyists, eccentrics and dreamers.I take offense to the sentiment that anyone who creates or learns any other "conlang" (constructed language) than Esperanto is a weirdo or fantasist (though I take "dreamer" as a compliment). I don't personally see Esperanto as more special or elevated than anything Mark Rosenfelder or Sonja Kisa has created, except that it has history, ease of use and a large following on its side.
I actually learned Esperanto out of curiosity because I wanted to experience a "constructed language" in depth. I was going to invest time in Lojban but turned (back) to Esperanto after years of flirting with it because it was more interesting and more useful. I like Esperanto as a language and I like how it's connected me to (non English speaking) people all over the world. Okrent's book, however, is a pastiche of personal experiences and stereotypes written more as a way of pointing out such a culture exists for the benefit of those who don't believe in it more than as a serious book for the linguistically-interested among us. I was actually disappointed in the book as a "conlanger" myself.
1Guy1 (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 15:41:29
Ironchef: Okrent's book, however, is a pastiche of personal experiences and stereotypes written more as a way of pointing out such a culture exists for the benefit of those who don't believe in it more than as a serious book for the linguistically-interested among us. I was actually disappointed in the book as a "conlanger" myself.I had the impression (from comments/reviews) that this book was written to entertain the public, rather than seriously inform anyone by means of a balanced look at the subject matter. This is why I have never tried to read it.
If you want to be entertained fine, but I think that this kind of book, like a certain kind of journalism, is the not the place to seek validation.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 16:10:01
erinja:.. an Esperantist all decked out in Green Star gear, berating a hapless shop clerk for speaking to a foreign tourist in English..May I ask where you saw someone like that?
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 16:24:50
Miland:I didn't see it personally. The person who did it told me about it. It was an attendee of the UK in Copenhagen, and she took offense when a Danish shop clerk spoke to her in English. Apparently this lady's native language was French, and apparently the shop clerk did speak French, and the lady was angry that the shop clerk didn't start off speaking French to her in the first place. I don't know how the clerk could possibly have known, since you can't tell by looking at someone which language they speak. This lady told me about how she lectured the clerk about speaking English to her, and why didn't she speak French to her since she knew it, etc etc. I don't remember the exact details, this lady was clearly crazy so I was trying not to laugh.erinja:.. an Esperantist all decked out in Green Star gear, berating a hapless shop clerk for speaking to a foreign tourist in English..May I ask where you saw someone like that?
The recounting of the story was part of this UK attendee's one-sided conversation with me; this "conversation" mainly consisted of her screed against the English language, which started up when she heard me tell someone I was American.
To be fair, maybe I exaggerated a little about the green star gear. This person only had a t-shirt and a bag, and possibly a hat.
jchthys (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-13 17:16:28
sudanglo:No doubt some of you will already have read 'In the Land of Invented Languages'. I have only just received my copy through the local library…I was given that book for my birthday this year, and I really enjoyed it. I thought the author treated Esperanto quite fairly, considering that she herself is not an Esperantist. After all, she did go through the trouble of learning it! The fact that she sees it from an outsider's perspective may not be something we really like—but it's certainly different from people who are hostile towards the language.
Just as I respect those who don't share my faith and yet respect it, I respect those who choose not to learn Esperanto and yet aren't hostile towards it.
In short, I thought the book was generally humorous and tasteful.