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How common is this?

de Evildela, 2011-decembro-20

Mesaĝoj: 18

Lingvo: English

Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-20 20:32:44

So I love Esperanto and all, and I've been studying it for just over year and a half. Now I'm no expert and don't even claim to be anywhere near fluent in all aspects of the language. But one thing I've noticed in Sydney is that about 50% of the older generation speakers support the ideals of Esperanto heavily but totally lack command of the language. We have a 40 year+ Esperantist here, who NEVER uses the accusative - except in the most basic of SVO sentences. Then the few young Esperantists I know all have exceptional command of the language, I would even go so far as to say our best speaker in Sydney is 18 years old. So is this a local occurrence, English thing, or global?

qwertz (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-20 21:24:34

Hhm. I know somebody non-German native. He told me that he gave up to learn correct German der/die/das. He is 30-. But for me it everytime takes lot of internal energy to supress to correct him. Its no problem to hear a spoken mistake one time, two times, three times ... ten times. But someday its enough. It nervsegilas. So I probably know what you mean. I don't believe that this is matter of age.

(He, he. Hopefully my English doesn't trigger the same? okulumo.gif )

trojo (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-20 21:33:46

Maybe the younger folks have just had more opportunities to practice, with a wider variety of correspondents. With the internet, you can communicate everyday in Esperanto if you like, with just about anyone in the world who speaks it. With a wider group to communicate with, you are less likely to be as negatively influenced by small local groups who reinforce each others' bad habits (since they all have similar bad habits, speaking the same native language).

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-20 21:39:45

Evildela:But one thing I've noticed in Sydney is that about 50% of the older generation speakers support the ideals of Esperanto heavily but totally lack command of the language.
It's very common. You get good at the language by attending Esperanto events and speaking in Esperanto, and I think the older generation has done this less than the younger generation. The internet has also made things loads easier.

One thing that you might also notice is that the older generation usually has a much more obvious national accent, whereas most good younger speakers are virtually accent-free. I think standards have changed. People didn't worry much about accent in the past, but today, people want to speak with the most international accent possible (and it is easy to measure their progress in this regard, with the ability to use Skype and other audio materials, not just words on a page)

Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-20 22:08:14

Well good its not just me, because I feel totally rude when I tell someone whose been speaking esperanto longer then I've been alive that they are making basic mistakes. I guess the internet has greatly blessed Esperanto ridulo.gif

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-20 23:09:24

Normally it is not considered polite to tell someone that they are making mistakes, unless they have first indicated that they would like to be corrected. The ages of the people don't really matter.

Some people disagree, and believe that it's best to correct people whenever they err, to improve the language level of the community. But rightly or wrongly, current Esperanto etiquette is that it's rude to correct people.

I've met Esperantists who have "spoken" the language since before I was born, who lead their local Esperanto groups, and who can not even choke out a coherent sentence. There are plenty of eternal beginners, and there are plenty of people who know that they make a lot of mistakes but simply don't care ("So long as I'm understood, it doesn't matter").

NJ Esperantist (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-21 00:52:41

I've often felt the best way to correct someone is passively, by giving a good speech model. I think often times mistakes are made out of lack of practice or... laziness. Hearing the language spoken well reinforces/reminds them of how it should be spoken.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-21 12:03:57

I think this phenomenon goes back a very long way Evildela.

I seem to recall from the 1960's, that the best speakers of the language that I met as a young Esperantist were those who has acquired the language in their student years.

It's sort of irritating to have people who call themselves Esperantists and have who been in the movement for some time, but haven't yet progressed beyond the level that you would expect from someone who has just started learning the language.

But their subscriptions keep the clubs and magazines going, I suppose.

I would be a good idea to have two different labels. One for people who support the idea of Esperanto but are not prepared to make an investment in learning the language properly, and another for those who speak the language - Esperanto-supporter and Esperanto speaker - and habitually make the distinction.

Currently the term Esperantist is applied somewhat indiscriminately.

robinast (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-21 12:45:57

erinja:
I've met Esperantists who have "spoken" the language since before I was born, who lead their local Esperanto groups, and who can not even choke out a coherent sentence.
This is something beyond of my ability to understand - don't they really have enough self-criticism to adjudge themselves being incompetent for this role?! shoko.gif

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-decembro-21 14:50:02

robinast:
erinja:
I've met Esperantists who have "spoken" the language since before I was born, who lead their local Esperanto groups, and who can not even choke out a coherent sentence.
This is something beyond of my ability to understand - don't they really have enough self-criticism to adjudge themselves being incompetent for this role?! shoko.gif
Some of them enjoy the community so they continue for the friendship. If they attend Esperanto events locally, then everyone there probably speaks their language, so they can just talk in their native language.

Others probably have some kind of mental illness or a condition that prevents them from having that kind of self awareness. I've met many Esperanto speakers who have some form of Asperger's syndrome.

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