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Francismo?

od sudanglo, 08. januar 2012

Sporočila: 52

Jezik: English

Miland (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 14:28:59

darkweasel:First you say aŭdi la bombon eksplodi is wrong..
My reason is that, in my view, the infinitive shouldn't be used as an adjectival participle. However, it has been used thus in practice. If this use becomes prevalent, the question will become academic.
darkweasel:you propose a parallel construction mi aŭdis neniun diri
I don't deny proposing it, but I would say that it is the lesser evil; mi aŭdis neniun diri at least has an explicit object, while mi ne aŭdis diri in my view is worse.

darkweasel (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 14:40:40

Miland:
darkweasel:First you say aŭdi la bombon eksplodi is wrong..
My reason is that, in my view, the infinitive shouldn't be used as an adjectival participle. However, it has been used thus in practice. If this use becomes prevalent, the question will become academic.
According to PMEG even Zamenhof used it that way.

tommjames (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 15:09:12

Have to say I don't really understand how this use of the infinitive makes it "as an adjectivial participle", which suggests that the participle is the normal way of putting it. The use of the infinitive in this type of phrase seems to me much more widespread. Searching in Tekstaro seems to bear that out too; a mere 3 results for the participle:

1 trovo en Don Kiĥoto de la Manĉo en Barcelono
alvenis tiel proksime, ke oni povis en la vezelo aŭdi la voĉojn dirantaj, ke ili kapitulacu, du tora

1 trovo en Nova Testamento
pli multe da signoj, ol ĉi tiu faris? La Fariseoj aŭdis la amason murmuranta tion pri li, kaj la ĉefp

1 trovo en Artikoloj el Monato
Ĉie oni vidas kaj aŭdas homojn parolantaj per porteblaj telefonoj.

The main use I can see for using an anta-participle instead would be to present the action in a progressive, imperfective way. With murmuri or paroli that would make sense as they are verbs whose lexical aspect suggests the possibility of an ongoing/developing action, to which the progressive participle is suited. In contrast eksplodi, a verb that strongly suggests a short, sudden event that quickly comes to completion, seems less suited. Unless perhaps we were speaking of several bomboj, in which case we might well say that we heard the bombs as a collective going off, or eksplodantaj.

Miland (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 16:13:50

darkweasel:According to PMEG even Zamenhof used it that way.
The last box on that page contains good examples of such usage, but says that it is done with sensory verbs like vidi or aŭdi. So this is evidence that the usage can be regarded as established with such verbs.
Zamenhof? demando.gif

tommjames (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 16:46:47

Miland:but says that it is done with sensory verbs like vidi or aŭdi
The section limited to aŭdi, vidi and the like is just to do with how the infinitive works as a predicative for the object of those types of verbs. If you back up in the page a bit you will see it is also normal for several other verbs, such as those which instigate action on the part of the object:

PMEG:Mi petas vin trinki.
Ŝi devigis ŝin manĝi en la kuirejo.
Lasu do lin rakonti!
Ŝi ekĝemis kaj lasis fali la manojn.
Oni vokas la bovon ne festeni, sed treni.
Mi sendos venigi kuracistojn
La finiĝado de la tago igis ilin rapidi.

lgg (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 18:10:56

First part of that article is OK, second is the unacceptable idiocy.

In which language you can say "hear to do" or "see to do"?

tommjames (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 18:12:24

lgg:First part of that article is OK, second is the unacceptable idiocy.
Like the second part of your sentence.

Kirilo81 (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 18:54:44

lgg:
In which language you can say "hear to do" or "see to do"?
It's common in German (Ich höre ihn kommen. "Mi aŭdas lin veni.") and even more in classical languages (Latin Accusativus cum infinitivo), also English has it's "I should have seen it come."

Miland (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 18:54:54

tommjames:If you back up in the page a bit you will see it is also normal for several other verbs
In that section the infinitive is used as an imperative. I was talking about its use as an adjectival participle or perverba priskribo.

Darkweasel - what's the connection with Zamenhof?

darkweasel (Prikaži profil) 09. januar 2012 19:08:17

Miland:
Darkweasel - what's the connection with Zamenhof?
PMEG gives these examples:

Ho, Marion, ke mi denove aŭdas vin paroli.[BV.80]

Mi hodiaŭ matene vidis danci miajn knabinojn.[BV.17]

These [BV.80] and [BV.17] (and similar) markings in PMEG always refer to a text written by Zamenhof.

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