הודעות: 101
שפה: English
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 12:02:37
But who says Mi televidis interesan programon hieraŭ?
And who doesn't say Mi aĉetis novan televidon?
Furthermore, in all the translations in other languages at this link none of them uses a word with 'd'.
This hardly supports the case for viewing televido as an international word under rule 15.
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 12:25:02
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 13:04:16
There is some support in the Tekstaro for televidilo.
But hardly any instances of televidas/os/is, or televidiĝi/televidigi - which rather suggests that the oficiala aldono hasn't got it right.
By an overwhelming margin (compared to verbal use) the forms televido and televida are most used.
Kion vi faris hieraŭ vespere? Mi rigardis la televidon. Not Mi televidis.
Chainy (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 15:11:48
sudanglo:There is some support in the Tekstaro for televidilo.Televidilo is a perfectly normal word in Esperanto! It refers to the actual TV set. The apparatus itself.
Televido refers to the technology of transmitting the images and sound, rather than to a specific apparatus. However, it seems that some people do use 'televido' also to refer to the TV set (but I'd stick with the addition of '-ilo')
sudanglo:Kion vi faris hieraŭ vespere? Mi rigardis la televidon. Not Mi televidis.I quite like the idea of using the verb 'televidi', in the same way as 'fernsehen' in German.
Otherwise, I'd say 'Mi spektis televidon' (no definite article there). I think I prefer the use of 'spekti', rather than 'rigardi' here.
erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 17:19:16
I use "televido" to mean the whole idea of television - television as a medium of transmitting information, as opposed to the actual box that I use to receive the signals.
I say "spekti televidon" myself. Spekti televidon per televidilo, if you will!
Televido referring to the television set doesn't sit well with my lingvosento, it sounds wrong to me.
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 20:12:28
In Mi aĉetis novan televidon, it seems unlikely that anybody would interpret this as buying a new broadcast channel.
And not everybody says Mi aĉetis novan radio-aparaton. Mi aĉetis novan radion seems quite sufficient.
O-words can be quite concrete, for example, manĝo for a meal - even though, as the theorists would have it, manĝ the root is inherently a verb.
Listing televidi as the base form smacks of a theorist's muddle.
The base form of any word should not be one least commonly used. If Televid really is a root (like Telefon) and not a compound, then its base form should be substantive.
And, as I have already commented, if it's a root then in principle it is no different to alies in its formation.
By the way, I see that televid and teleskop are according to NPIV compounds.
The listing of Televidilo, derived from Televidi, seems to me to largely stem from the idea that vid has got to remain verbal - so its the ilo you use to televidi as kombilo is the ilo you use to kombi. The problem is though that televidi doesn't get used much, and kombi does.
If Televido means the whole idea of television, television as a medium (agreed as one of its meanings), then I think that Televidilo as a derivative is a bit strained. To make it work comfortably you are forced to invent televid the verb, which is rarely used.
What does the following sentence mean la matĉo inter Francujo kaj Bulgarujo estis hieraŭ televidata? Was the match televised or viewed?
We say Mi aŭdis en la radio where radio is the medium. But who says radiilo to refer to the wireless set?
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 20:13:37
sudanglo:It might be better to pay attention to how the language is actually used..Televido and televidilo can both be found used as a noun in the tekstaro, but I would say that we should as far as possible disregard incorrect usage and promote correct usage.
You will find the correct use of televidilo and televidi respectively in sections 3.1 and 6.2 of Don Lord's Conversational Esperanto, a book recommended by Marjorie Boulton.
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 20:34:48
Miland: I would say that we should as far as possible disregard incorrect usage and promote correct usage.As a principle it would be hard to disagree with that.
The question is how do you decide if something is correct?
Common usage is one criterion, another is consistency with Esperanto's system.
Both of these over-ride appeals to authority, which seems to be your preferred method of argument.
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 21:02:43
Matenmanĝi is derived from the common compound matenmanĝo - not from manĝi - and therefore does not have to be transitive.
We have a similar issue here. Whether televid is a root or a compound, televidilo needs to be considered as deriving from the particular meaning of televido.
Since this is largely a substantive idea and most ilo words are derived from verbal ideas, you can perhap see why I baulk at televidilo, just as you rejected matenmanĝi as transitve, your lingvo-sento telling you that to breakfast comes from breakfast.
My argument is that the basic idea is televido, as demonstrated by the frequency of this and televida. Yes, from this you can create words like televidanto and televidi as you can derive matenmanĝanto and matenmanĝi from matenmanĝo.
But to put up televidi as a base form, whether compound or root, is ill motivated.
I suspect that the established theory about how Esperanto works, whilst accounting for the bulk of usage, actually needs some refinement to account for all correct usage.
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 22 בינואר 2012, 21:49:45
:The question is how do you decide if something is correct?I do not deny the value of looking at usage. But in this case we have the Akademio taking an official position, which is:
TELEVID/ televid/i 8OA BRO9: televidi
Therefore televid/i is a basic and verbal form.
Regarding matenmanĝi we don't have an official position, and the intransitive use of the verb is well-established.