Poruke: 79
Jezik: English
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 11:04:54
1. cloakroom, garderobe (loko kie oni lasas sian mantelon)
2. vestry, robing-room (loko kie oni surmetas veston)
When answering, please indicate whether you are a linguist or an Esperantist.
TatuLe (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 11:46:37
sudanglo:When answering, please say indicate whether you are a linguist or an Esperantist.Is it not possible to be both?
antoniomoya (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 12:31:44
sudanglo:Does vestejo mean:"Vestejo", for me, means "loko por vestoj".
1. cloakroom, garderobe
2. vestry, robing-room
When answering, please say indicate whether you are a linguist or an Esperantist.
I am only an Esperantist.
Amike.
EldanarLambetur (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 13:10:48
Though if I were ordered to choose in the absence of context, I'd probably pick "robing-room". With the logic that, I think "vest-" is naturally an i-word (action word, rather than thing or quality), so I think of the "ejo" for "vesti", rather than the "ejo" for "vesto". Though the Lernu dictionary seems to list it as an o-word! (contrary to at least ReVo and ESPDIC I think)
Though after reading many of especially your posts Sudanglo, I'm beginning to rate context above analysis of root types (which is a good guide, but not the be all and end all perhaps).
And if context doesn't make it clear, then would "vestaĵejo" and "vestadejo" be appropriate to differentiate?
I still consider myself to be pretty new to Esperanto, and my work (computational linguistics)
Chainy (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 16:03:23
EldanarLambetur:I think "vest-" is naturally an i-word (action word, rather than thing or quality)There's clearly a lot of confusion about this as the dictionaries contradict each other. As you mention, ReVo has the base form as 'vesti', whereas NPIV2002 and Wells have it as 'vesto'.
In the case of the Lernu dictionary, well it actually reflects this confusion very well as it shows it both ways!
(Look up 'vesto' and then 'vesti'). I don't think it's worth worrying about this, though. Out of context, when I hear the word 'vesto', my first reaction is to think of it as a garment of some sort. "Vestado" would certainly be about the action. But, as is often the case, context is important.
darkweasel (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 16:06:36
Chainy:... and the Fundamento translates the root as a verb.EldanarLambetur:I think "vest-" is naturally an i-word (action word, rather than thing or quality)There's clearly a lot of confusion about this as the dictionaries contradict each other. As you mention, ReVo has the base form as 'vesti', whereas NPIV2002 and Wells have it as 'vesto'.
Chainy (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 16:19:40
darkweasel:...and the Akademio lists the base form as 'vest/o'.Chainy:... and the Fundamento translates the root as a verb.EldanarLambetur:I think "vest-" is naturally an i-word (action word, rather than thing or quality)There's clearly a lot of confusion about this as the dictionaries contradict each other. As you mention, ReVo has the base form as 'vesti', whereas NPIV2002 and Wells have it as 'vesto'.
The Fundamento shows the following:
vest' = vêtir, habiller | clothe | ankleiden | одѣвать | odziewać, ubierać.
vest'o = habit | clothes | Kleid | платье | ubiór, odzież.
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 16:51:08
EldanarLambetur:Though after reading many of especially your posts Sudanglo, I'm beginning to rate context above analysis of root types (which is a good guide, but not the be all and end all perhaps).Ah, you've seen though my subterfuge Eldanar.
Yes, there is no good reaon why vestejo should not cover both 1. and 2., with context determining the meaning.
It is only when you are absolutely wedded to the idea that roots have an inherent grammatical class, that you get your knickers in a twist - for what sense does that idea make, if a root is both a verb and noun.
That would be like saying that nouns in French can be both feminine and masculine.
Under the theory of inherent grammatical class Vestejo MUST surely be EITHER meaning 1. OR 2., depending on what you consider to be the correct class for vest-.
tommjames (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 18:13:52
sudanglo:It is only when you are absolutely wedded to the idea that roots have an inherent grammatical class, that you get your knickers in a twistNo, it's only when you're absolutely wedded to the idea that the existing theories must consistently account for and explain absolutely every word-form that may ever arise in the language, that you get your knickers in a twist. I can only imagine how twisted your own knickers became when you hit upon vestejo as the latest example of inadequacy in the root-classes concept!
Sudanglo, you seem to enjoy taking every chance you get to have a pop at root-classes. But what do you suggest as a remedy to the perceived problem? I presume you don't merely wish for better application of the current theories, but want a better theory or set of theories (you said in another thread that you want an "Esperantology that doesn't sweep problems under the carpet" or something like that). So what exactly does this all-encompassing Esperantology that you dream of look like? Why do you keep carping on about it without making any suggestions for improvement?
sudanglo:what sense does that idea, make if a root is both a verb and noun.Root-classes would make a lot of sense, because "a root" is just 1 root, out of a very large number of roots which are described adequately by the theory. It's quite understandable that there should be a few edge-cases where it's difficult to make a unary classification.
Of course I'm not saying there is only 1 root whose root-class may be debated, but it seems to me unreasonable to bash the theory just because there are a few oddities here and there. It may not be 100% comprehensive, but it does a good enough job of describing the function of the language in general. That seems to me to be about the best you can hope for in a language of Esperanto's construction. If you think that isn't good enough then I really entreat you to show us what is.
erinja (Prikaz profila) 1. veljače 2012. 20:29:31