Mesaĝoj: 77
Lingvo: English
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 13:07:32
goli (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 13:25:07
pdenisowski (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 14:09:56
sudanglo:Well, Eldnar, NPIV lists four definitions for zorgi and one of them does use 'maltrankviliĝi ' in the definition. But zorgi and maltrankvili seem to me to occupy different semantic territory.I agree completely with sudanglo that "maltrankviliĝi" is the best translation here.
Zorgi is more like have a concern for, than like be upset (emotional).
Although one of the definitions of "zorgi" is "maltrankviliĝi pro nercerteco aŭ dubeco de io kion oni opinias grava" it also has the (in my experience more common) meaning of "serioze direkti sian atenton kaj agadon al ies bono".
Note that in German the verb form "sorgen" usually is used in the sense of "zorgi" (take care of, attend to), whereas the noun form "Sorge (machen)" corresponds more to "maltrankviliĝi"
- mach dir darum keine Sorge : Ne maltrankviliĝu pri tio
- ich sorge für das Essen : Mi zorgas pri la manĝaĵo
Although there are some common exceptions to this : ich werde dafür Sorge tragen (I'll take responsibility for that), sie sorgt sich wegen jeder Kleinigkeit (she worries about every little thing), etc.
Using "maltrankviliĝi" would remove any ambiguity in the original example :
"Vi ne bezonas zorgi pri tio ke mi ŝtelos/ŝtelu/ŝtelus vian monon"
which almost sounds to me like "Don't worry, I'll take care of stealing your money"
Amike,
Paul
Hyperboreus (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 15:43:55
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 16:01:46
Hyperboreus:Nevertheless, it will not be a fully fletched language until the day that we have a natively Esperanto speaking community.How much time have you spent speaking Esperanto, Hyperboreus?
In your mother tongue you can check a sentence for grammatical correctedness by simply stating "this phrase sounds strange", although you cannot tell which "grammatical rule" has been broken. You can never do this with a language that you haven't learned as a young child. Until we don't have this ability to judge a phrase for "sounding strange" (applying native-Esperanto principles and not the principles of our mother tongue), we cannot fully describe the grammar of Esperanto.
In fact, yes, you CAN certainly develop a sense of "that sounds wrong" in Esperanto, even as a non-native speaker. I most certainly have this ability, and there are other readers of this forum who have this ability as well. We aren't native speakers, just experienced Esperantists. It's a common enough situation that we have an Esperanto word to describe the intuitive feeling of whether something is right or wrong -- lingvosento
Google the term and see how it's used.
You develop your lingvosento by using Esperanto, reading Esperanto, etc. You don't have to be a native speaker, and you don't have to learn as a young child (I was about 15 when I started with Esperanto); you just have to use the language a lot. There have been many instances where I was correcting a lesson and my "lingvosento" told me that the student's text had an error, but I was unable to put my finger on an exact reason why the certain choice of form was wrong. In those cases, I looked up the form in a grammar guide, to confirm (or refute) the correctness of my lingvosento, and to give the learner a reason for why this form was wrong, beyond a simple "It sounds wrong". In most cases, the grammar guide confirmed what my lingvosento told me, and provided me with a grammatical explanation, which I was able to give to the student. Occasionally I found that a form was not wrong, just rare, so I advised the student on that as well.
It's exactly what I've done in English, when editing someone's English text. My intuition as a native speaker tells me that something is wrong. Sometimes I know why it's wrong and I can give an explanation easily. Sometimes I need to look up the explanation. And sometimes, even in English, it turns out not to be wrong at all, just a rare usage!
goli (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 16:37:01
And I agree with erinja. I've been speaking the English language for about 7-8 years, and sometimes am able to say which English phrase or word is correct and which isn't.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 18:03:34
There is no good reason why the characteristics of natural languages should be reflected completely in Esperanto.
As an adults-only language governed by principles, it is a genuinely new phenomenon.
Native speakers, of which there are only a few, do not constitute the final authority as to whether something is well-formed, and are unlikely ever to do so because of the purpose for which Esperanto is designed.
Erinja's point about the existence of a lingvo-sento among Esperantists is quite valid.
But as a language which is almost exclusively learnt after the attainment of the age of reason, explicit conscious principles of formation are freqently brought into play.
This seems alien to those of a linguistic background, but is a sociological fact about the Esperanto-speaking community.
As to whether Esperanto is a fully-fledged (the image is from birds, not archery) language it all depends on the definition of such a language that you wish to adopt.
Edit: Interestingly your error (fully-fletched) in English, is of a type that, in principle, is unlikely occur in Esperanto. Esperanto unlike the natural languages is not riddled with fixed expressions.
Writing your post in Esperanto, I might have said plen-matura or plen-bakita, but I could have chosen any description that explicitly (even if metaphorically) conveyed the intended meaning, not limited by considerations of idiom.
EldanarLambetur (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 18:17:47
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 18:17:58
erinja:advocato?Sorry, Erinja your point escapes me.
Were you thinking about a talking avokado?
EldanarLambetur (Montri la profilon) 2012-februaro-09 18:25:25
sudanglo:I think it might be because of your example:erinja:advocato?Sorry, Erinja your point escapes me.
Were you thinking about a talking avokado?
"Mi havas kelkajn zorgojn pri ĉi tiu parto de la kontrakto diris la advocato trankvile."