Missatges: 22
Llengua: English
Demian (Mostra el perfil) 12 de març de 2012 10.14.06
It is different from inferiority complex in which you think your culture or society or country is inferior to others in some important respect.
To give you a context, here is an example:
I was reading a short opinion piece in the The Indian EXPRESS yesterday. It was about special treatment - including serving Italian food cooked at some star hotel - being given to Italian soldiers who killed two Indian fishermen.
In the end author Soli J Sorabjee says: "I don't grudge this preferential treatment but doubt whether the same treatment would be accorded to a non-white accused from an African or Asiatic country. We have not rid ourselves of the gora complex."
sudanglo (Mostra el perfil) 12 de març de 2012 11.19.03
Demian (Mostra el perfil) 12 de març de 2012 15.03.04
sudanglo:I had to look up the meaning of Gora. It seems it means pale-skinned or fair-skinned. You could either innovate and say Gora-komplekso, or translate literally with pal-haŭtula or blanketula komplekso.Though gora also means fair-skinned, it is usually used to refer to Englishmen (we use gori for Englishwomen in Indian English).
When applied to Indians, the word is usually used to admire the physical appearance. It's more complicated when it's applied to the English. In that case, depending on the speaker, the word can be either appreciative or derogatory.
So,
Raj isn't that gora. = Raj isn't that handsome.
and
Nicolas Sarkozy isn't a gora. = Nicolas Sarkozy isn't an Englishman.
I think, a literal translation doesn't take that nuance into account so it's better to borrow the word directly into Esperanto. What do you say?
erinja (Mostra el perfil) 12 de març de 2012 18.50.03
Therefore if it were Indian Esperantists talking among themselves, then fine, talk about "goro-komplekso"
But when talking to non-Indian Esperantists, this word "gora" doesn't really qualify as international, to be borrowed into Esperanto as a loanword. No one outside of India would be likely to understand what you were talking about, and since Esperanto is all about communicating and being understood, use of "gora" as a loanword would be more trouble than it's worth. I would favor a translation by meaning rather than by word, as sudanglo suggested; "prefero al blankhaŭtuloj", etc.
You can't capture in Esperanto every nuance of local terms, slang, and idioms. And vice versa - someone can "kabei" in Esperanto, but it doesn't make sense in English to say "John Kabe'd a couple years ago", except perhaps among other Esperanto speakers. We'd say instead "John suddenly left the Esperanto movement a couple years ago".
If "gora" is used as a synonym for attractive, then again, I would simply use a suitable Esperanto word. "Raĝ ne aspektas aparte bele" or "Raĝ ne aparte belas"
Demian (Mostra el perfil) 13 de març de 2012 5.06.16
erinja:I say that this is a situation where this term is clearly very culturally specific to Indians.I explicitly mention in the first post that gora is a subcontinental term. It means people from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Maldives and, probably, Burma and Afghanistan understand it.
erinja:this word "gora" doesn't really qualify as international..It's not less international than BARATO. I personally prefer INDIO but for some silly reason they chose BARATO.
erinja:You can't capture in Esperanto every nuance of local terms, slang, and idioms.Perhaps you are right. Probably blankhauxt-komplekso or anglul-komplekso are more logical translations. But again, a language isn't math. To be irrational is an integral part of it. As they famously point out: vivscienco (biology) and hauxptscienco (dermatology) are more logical. Does any one pay notice?
darkweasel (Mostra el perfil) 13 de març de 2012 6.11.01
Demian:You probably mean Hindujo (or Hindio if you insist).
It's not less international than BARATO. I personally prefer INDIO but for some silly reason they chose BARATO.
Demian (Mostra el perfil) 13 de març de 2012 8.29.02
darkweasel:No, both Barato and Hindujo/Hindio are regional terms. Whereas Indio will be understood by almost all in Europe, the Americas, much of Africa and the Commonwealth countries; Hindujo/Hindio's comprehensibility is limited to Northern India, the Arab World, Iran and probably the Central Asian countries.Demian:You probably mean Hindujo (or Hindio if you insist).
It's not less international than BARATO. I personally prefer INDIO but for some silly reason they chose BARATO.
Barato is even less international. I believe only those in India or its proximity (perhaps in Thailand, Cambodia and Bali in Indonesia too) are aware of the term.
And on hearing it first, many Indians will confuse Barato for barat, the Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi word for 'wedding.'
Hindujo/Hindio may not be acceptable to all because of its religious connotations. (Hindujo = lando de hinduoj) It ignores our 200 million+ Muslim population, more than any Arab country.
Here are the terms in the decreasing order of international recognisability:
Indio, indiano, indiaj lingvoj >
Hindio, hindano, hindaj lingvoj >
Barato, baratano, barataj lingvoj
Evildela (Mostra el perfil) 13 de març de 2012 10.33.58
La nomo Barato havas la saman signifon kiel Hinda Unio. La vorto Hindujo (aŭ Hindio) aliflanke havas neklaran signifon – legu pli pri tio en la artikolo Hindujo. La plej multaj barataj esperantistoj preferas la vorton Barato por la ŝtato, tiel konservante la vorton Hindujo por la historia signifo de Brita Hindujo aŭ por la tuta hinda subkontinento, kiu entenas krom Barato ankaŭ Bangladeŝon, Butanon, Nepalon kaj Pakistanon.The name Barato has the same meaning as Hindia Unio. The word Hindujo (or Hindio) on the other hand it is ambigious - To read more go to the article about Hindujo. The majority of Indian Esperantist's prefer the world Barato for the state, thus leaving the word Hindujo for the historic state which was ruled under the British or for the entire subcontinent, which was includes besides Barato (India), Bangladesh, Bhutan, Nepal, and Pakistan.
India isn't unique in this, the common name Wales, is rendered as Kimrio. Which as an Australian meant nothing to me until I learn that word.
erinja (Mostra el perfil) 13 de març de 2012 10.56.51
A balance is struck, in place names, between internationality, and accommodations made for the sensibilities of the people being thus-named.
Hindujo was used to refer to India in the past. Now, most people seem to use Barato, including India's national Esperanto association.
I've met a few other South Asians (mainly Nepalese) who use "Hinda Unio", but I don't believe I've heard this term from an Indian.
To me, it doesn't matter if "gora" is used all over southeast Asia. That only slightly widens my original statement. If Southeast Asians want to talk to each other and use this term - fine! But if they want to talk to a non-Southeast-Asian and be understood, they should have another term ready.
For a similar situation involving Europeans, I was always confused by the term "silvestra bankedo" (Silvester banquet) or "silvestra nokto" (Sylvester night). Then I finally asked someone what on earth that means. I was told it meant New Year's Eve. Never heard of it! This is evidently a popular and well-known term in many parts of Europe, because apparently the 31st of December is the saint's day of a saint named Sylvester. The meaning of this term is not guessable by anyone who lacks that cultural background. I prefer, therefore, to use more descriptive words (antaŭnovjara bankedo, novjariĝo, etc) that can be understood by people lacking the cultural basis to understand this "silvester" term (like myself).
If Europeans want to call it "silvestro" among themselves, I don't really care, but I'm not personally going to use that term, and I hold the same policy with "gora". Shall we also import the words "mzungu" and "pakeha"?
Demian (Mostra el perfil) 13 de març de 2012 11.38.43
erinja:A balance is struck, in place names, between internationality, and accommodations made for the sensibilities of the people being thus-named.That's a subjective statement. So no use arguing about it.
erinja:For a similar situation involving Europeans, I was always confused by the term "silvestra bankedo" (Silvester banquet) or "silvestra nokto" (Sylvester night). ...understand this "silvester" term (like myself).That's interesting! I would prefer the term 'silvestra nokto' because it tells something about the European culture, history, and gives you a rough idea of how they perceive the world around them.
I would personally prefer it because a language isn't just about communication, it's also about exploration.
If communication were the sole purpose of Esperanto, words like poezio and poeto should have never made it into the language for poemarto and poemisto are more logical alternatives. In fact the same is true of a large chunk of Esperanto vocabulary.
erinja:Shall we also import the words "mzungu" and "pakeha"?There is no harm is importing these terms. It only widens your horizons, isn't it?