Korwinisto:Problems with the accusative? See what Hitler says about that: Hitler kaj la akuzativo

I'm amazed by the mileage this Hitler film clip has gotten. I've seen it applied in dozens of different ways. This is the first Esperanto version I've seen.

I do apologise if I've offended anyone, or gone over old ground, but this is just something that I find difficult about the language, and, although I am prejudiced, being an English speaker, I find word order a perfectly acceptable way to structure a sentence. I appreciate that the accusative will not be going away, and I will do my utmost to learn it to the best of my ability.

I think any other word order would be just as easy for me to use with the way esperanto is designed at the present time. VSO, SOV, or SVO, it's just putting a different word in a different part of the sentence.

I don't really see why trying to make things easier for people, or helping people who are new at speaking Esperanto, would make anyone laugh, or irritate them. I want to learn esperanto because I want to get to know people who I may not otherwise be able to, and it's a wonderful thing. Is it wrong to ask that it be made just a little easier, even if that's not going to happen?

It seems a very long way off today, Lynchie, but there will come a time when you appreciate the flexibility in word order that the -n ending affords you. The flexible word order allows people to make all kinds of stylistic choices in literature that wouldn't be possible in English. People take advantage of the flexibility even in everyday speech, because it allows you to add nuances of meaning and subtle meaning, and people definitely do take advantage of it.

For example, I could easily imagine myself saying:
Mi nenion aŭdis pri tio. - I heard nothing about that (lit. I nothing heard about that) Extra emphasis on "nothing", due to altered word order.

Esperanto is designed as a compromise between ease of learning and flexibility/expressivity. You could argue that it gave excessive weight to expressivity at the expense of ease, but that's a judgment call, of course, and what's done is done, this is the way it is now. It evolves naturally but these basic elements are not really up for discussion.

And yes, this is exceedingly old ground. It's a tribute to the friendliness of the community in the lernu! forums that beginners generally get such kind and helpful responses to these hot-button topics that have already been done to death.

There's a principle of learning which says that you should try doing something first, without always asking in detail all of the reasons why, because in many cases, when you have learnt something thoroughly, the reasoning behind it becomes self-evident. I think that this is a very valid point with Esperanto grammar. Resist your inclination to complain about the difficulties or "fix the problems"; resolve to wait until you have learnt it well, to think about "fixing" anything. And then I think you'll find that your opinion will have changed by the time you've learnt the material better.

I can see your point, yes. I think that if I was learning french, german, or italian I wouldn't be complaining at all. I felt that I had/have a valid point that would help me, and some others, learn the language more easily, but perhaps I am wrong to complain so quickly about something that cannot be changed.

Lynchie1975:Is it wrong to ask that it be made just a little easier, even if that's not going to happen?

In the view of most experienced Esperantists: yes, it is wrong, precisely *because* it's not going to happen.

I get it, from your point of view. This is all new to you. But to those who've been studying a while, not only are these sorts of issues not new, but they are as recurring as the tides. As soon as one discussion of how awful the accusative is dies down, here comes another (generally native English speaking) beginner and we start it all over again. It becomes tiresome after a few years.

The important thing for new students to understand is: the grammar[1] of Esperanto is solidly fixed in place, and has been for over a century. It is NOT going to change, except by slow and natural evolution; something which cannot be shepherded by anyone. This is not an area to try and get creative in. Esperanto is not a language project under development. It is a fully fleshed out language with more than a century of consistent, stable usage behind it. NO ideas for improvement will even be considered by any Esperantist past the beginner stage[2], which is sometimes surprising (and even dispiriting) to newcomers. It shouldn't be, though. It insures that you can understand what Zamenhof wrote a century ago, and it means that people a century from now will still be able to understand what you write today.

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[1] The vocabulary, on the other hand, is changing all the time. We CAN talk about computers, the internet, cell phones, etc., even though vocabulary for such things didn't exist 125 years ago.

[2] Yes, yes, Mr. "I've been studying for twenty years and I still hate the accusative", YOU are an edge case. By the time most Esperantists make it to the intermediate stage, they no longer have any serious complaints about Esperanto's structure, and tend to become as rigid and inflexible about it as they are accused of being by their detractors. But that inflexibility is actually a strength, in this case. It's what has kept Esperanto alive while other "international" languages fell by the wayside.

Lynchie1975:I don't really see why trying to make things easier for people, or helping people who are new at speaking Esperanto, would make anyone laugh, or irritate them. I want to learn esperanto because I want to get to know people who I may not otherwise be able to, and it's a wonderful thing. Is it wrong to ask that it be made just a little easier, even if that's not going to happen?

Should we change Esperanto's alphabet to Arabic, to make it easier for Arabic-speakers?

Each language group has some aspect of the language that make it perhaps harder for them than for others. For one group certain sounds are hard to pronounce; for another group, the verbs work totally differently than they're used to; for another, certain letters have a totally non-intuitive pronunciation. How much should we compromise expressivity to make the language as easy as possible for every possible group on the planet?

Don't underestimate your own intelligence. You do not need the accusative to be dropped in Esperanto. If you are able to say "I see him" instead of "I see he" (the accusative in English!), then you are able to learn how to correctly use the accusative in Esperanto.

Have a little confidence in your ability to learn. You'll have to put in some effort but you will come away knowing a lot more about grammar, and you will come away much better placed to learn another language, if you choose to do so.

If you wanted to learn Spanish, presumably you'd want to learn Spanish as it is spoken by native Spanish speakers, as it is used in Spanish-language literature - not a dumbed-down Spanish with grammar that no one actually uses, intended for people who find the real Spanish too difficult. I know you're capable of learning Esperanto as it's actually spoken, not a dumbed-down version, so why sell yourself short? Esperanto really isn't that hard, for the level of expressiveness it gets you.

And so you miss a few accusative endings sometimes. Careless grammar is abundant in the community of Esperanto speakers, and it doesn't seem to stop anyone.

Hyperboreus:
Caesar ad sum jam forti
Brutus et erat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sic in at

which "translates" as

...nothing that makes sense (if I really try to translate it seriously).

Forigite