讯息： 4
语言: English
EldanarLambetur (显示个人资料) 2012年4月7日上午12:10:22
I have a minor curiosity. I've noted that it is the done thing to make use of "je" when talking about times. "Je la fino de la tago" and "Mi revenos je la 6a", to quote a couple from Being Colloquial in Esperanto.
Given that (according to PMEG) the preposition "ĉe" can be used in temporal expressions (like a bunch of other prepositions), does anyone know why we resort to the catch-all "je"?
I notice PMEG says you always use "je" when talking about "hours", and even bolds that bit. So is the the reason we don't use "ĉe", because it indicates "pozicion tre proksiman", in other words "ĉe la 6a" would be close to 6 but not quite, when we're actually trying to say dead on 6?
Given that (according to PMEG) the preposition "ĉe" can be used in temporal expressions (like a bunch of other prepositions), does anyone know why we resort to the catch-all "je"?
I notice PMEG says you always use "je" when talking about "hours", and even bolds that bit. So is the the reason we don't use "ĉe", because it indicates "pozicion tre proksiman", in other words "ĉe la 6a" would be close to 6 but not quite, when we're actually trying to say dead on 6?
Mustelvulpo (显示个人资料) 2012年4月7日上午5:30:13
EldanarLambetur:I notice PMEG says you always use "je" when talking about "hours", and even bolds that bit. So is the the reason we don't use "ĉe", because it indicates "pozicion tre proksiman", in other words "ĉe la 6a" would be close to 6 but not quite, when we're actually trying to say dead on 6?Yes, as PMEG notes: "Estas ofta miskompreno, ke ĉe nepre montras tuŝecon. Fakte ĉe nur montras proksimegecon." "Ĉe" can be used in temporal expressions such as those given in the PMEG chapter you cite, for example "Ĉe la komenco de la tagiĝo la arbaro aperis bele kovrita de prujno," but when referring to the numerical time of day, "je" should be used.
sudanglo (显示个人资料) 2012年4月7日上午8:04:44
In its spatial usage ĉe is somewhat fuzzy - dika ĉe la koksoj - and this is likely to carry over into its temporal usage.
Six o'clock however is a point in time - it is not viewed as occupying 'space' or having extension.
Ĉe la sesa could I suppose mean six o'clock-ish, but I don't think I have ever come across that usage. I would expect this meaning to be expressed as ĉirkaŭ la sesa.
If I were forced to identify a difference between je la komenco and ĉe la komenco, I would say that the former refers to something happening at the very beginning (as it began), and the latter meaning during the initial phase. But this might be straining it a bit.
Six o'clock however is a point in time - it is not viewed as occupying 'space' or having extension.
Ĉe la sesa could I suppose mean six o'clock-ish, but I don't think I have ever come across that usage. I would expect this meaning to be expressed as ĉirkaŭ la sesa.
If I were forced to identify a difference between je la komenco and ĉe la komenco, I would say that the former refers to something happening at the very beginning (as it began), and the latter meaning during the initial phase. But this might be straining it a bit.
