Meddelanden: 33
Språk: English
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 27 maj 2012 21:23:45
So, Erinja, it looks as though you pays your money and takes your choice.
Nobody seems to have been tempted to say Estunte tie, vi estus lin mortiginta.
cxevino (Visa profilen) 27 maj 2012 22:00:33
sudanglo:In the half a million words from articles in Monato which are included in the Tekstaro corpus. There are 3 hits for estus estinta and 3 hits for estintus.Because it's not grammatically correct. (-unt' doesn't existe in esperanto!) And anyway it wouldn't solve the 'problem'...
So, Erinja, it looks as though you pays your money and takes your choice.
Nobody seems to have been tempted to say Estunte tie, vi estus lin mortiginta.
Hyperboreus (Visa profilen) 27 maj 2012 23:23:13
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 28 maj 2012 10:22:30
"Se mi estus konstruinta domon." = "If I finished building a house" Not: If I had built a house, unless you add some adverb or something that specifies the past tense of this sentence, like "Se mi jam estus konstruinta domon." = "If I already had finished building a house" = "If I had built a house"I am not sure that this argument works, HB. Firstly If I finished building a house isn't really English. Secondly the standard way of expressing the unreal past in English is in fact If I had built... and the normal way of expressing this idea in Esperanto is Se mi estus konstruinta.
The -us forms don't define any tense, hence they can be used for both present (potential) and past (irreal) conditions:Well yes and no. Obviously there is no time marker inherent in -us. However the fact that the language readily provides a way of referring to the unreal past estus -inta (or -intus) means that in practice a plain -us is liable to be interpreted as present (or future).
The answer to the question Kiam la domo estis konstruita? is to give the year of completion of the building works (whether the building took years to complete or built just in that year). It would be bizarre to give a subsequent year as the answer because the house was in the state of having been built also in subsequent years.
If you wanted to express a past perfect idea eg By 1970 several motorways (in the UK) had been built then a 'jam' would be added - En 1970 pluraj aŭtoŝoŝeoj estis jam konstruitaj.
That seems to be clear.
However Kiam vi estis konstruinta la domon? is a strange question in Esperanto. Normally one would say Kiam vi konstruis la domon?. If the building took a very long time to complete, perhaps you might ask Kiam vi estis finkonstruinta? la domon.
The answer to the true meaning of '-int' whether antaŭtempa or perfective should be judged by looking also at usage as in estus -inta and -inte and -intus and -into.
Edit: with verbs of duration only (with no result) like esti, it might be very difficult to argue that estinta must mean plenumiĝo.
Here's an example from la Ekzecaro: Kiam vi vidis nin en la salono, li jam antaŭe diris al mi la veron (aŭ li estis dirinta al mi la veron).
Hyperboreus (Visa profilen) 28 maj 2012 16:15:36
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 28 maj 2012 20:06:24
Difficult topicNot really HB, provided you don't insist on some sort of symmetry between the complex active form and the passive form (which is always a complex form). And why would you insist?
The point of the complex active forms is to further refine (precizigi) the meaning of the simple active form.
The point of the passive forms is, well, to be passive.
I found a passage which puts Waringhien's point of view.
En nia Esperanto, la pasiva voĉo ne estas plene simetria al la aktiva: ... ĝi prezentas ĝin (la agon) sub iel akcentata, insista formo en kiu la participo montras la gradon de finiteco kaj nur la helpverbo la tempon. Dume, en la aktiva, ĉar la tempon montras la simpla formo, la grupo 'estis -inta' povas esti destinita al la esprimo de la antaŭpasinteco (=pluskvamperfekto) sen ia ĝeno.
Estas do falsa metodo, se oni provas difini la sencon de la pasivaj formoj rilatigante ilin kun la aktivaj kunmetitaj formoj, kiel faras kelkaj okazaj gramatikistoj, emaj pensi pli geometrie ol filologie ....
Incidentally, Waringhien puts the blame for atismo on the shoulders of speakers of German, Dutch, Danish and Swedish speakers who wanted to impose the 'ĝermana verbsistemo' on Esperanto.
Hyperboreus (Visa profilen) 28 maj 2012 20:31:32
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 28 maj 2012 21:31:46
Kiam ili matene vekiĝas, ili estas sonĝintaj absolute nenionThis is a good example.
If you said Kiam ili matene vekiĝas, ili sonĝas nenion it wouldn't make sense, unless you can dream while you are awake.
If you could restrain yourself from the linguist's mania of imposing classification, it might help. After all, the point about language is that the sentences should reliably convey meaning, not that they should fit into some preferred classifications.
The ata/ita debate was engendered largely in relation to estis ata and estis ita.
I'm afraid that sweeping generalisations such as the participles are temporal (or aspectual) fill me with despair. However give me a specific sentence and I'm happy to say what I thinks it means or if it is strange.
To seach the Tekstaro for instances of estas -inta, enter in the search box \bestas \w+int\AF
erinja (Visa profilen) 29 maj 2012 10:05:17
黄鸡蛋:However, as sudanglo has said, "ili sonĝas absolute nenion" is strange as they don't dream when they wake up. Using past tense to show that dreaming happens before waking up is also a bit odd. So a good way is to use -int-.-as also indicates usual actions, so "Ili sonĝas absolute nenion" could also mean that they don't usually dream.
In Zamenhof's sentence, you could also word it as "Kiam ili matene vekiĝas, ili trovas ke ili sonĝis absolute nenion"
"estas sonĝintaj" is of course perfectly ok in this case. It exists for us to use, and we do use it, but we have to be careful not to overdo it (beginners are especially inclined to overdo it because they think they have to translate every nuance of the verb tenses from their own language)
jasonmax990 (Visa profilen) 22 september 2023 07:23:21
Die Struktur und der Wortschatz des Esperanto bieten Sprechenden die Möglichkeit, Ideen präzise auszudrücken und gleichzeitig die Klarheit zu wahren. Es ist wertvoll, verschiedene Möglichkeiten der Satzkonstruktion zu erkunden, um den beabsichtigten Sinn und Ton in der Kommunikation zu erfasse