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Why is "studisto" not an acceptable translation of student?

של Betka, 22 בספטמבר 2007

הודעות: 20

שפה: English

T0dd (הצגת פרופיל) 3 באוקטובר 2007, 00:38:12

Personally, I think "studisto" is a perfectly clear and appropriate term for "student", and "studento," though it's very international, is in fact not needed. I'll have to disagree with Erinja on the implication of getting paid or being a professional. The Reta Vortaro gives a fairly broad definition of "-isto": Personon, kiu profesie, daŭre, prefere aŭ ofte sin okupas pri la afero difinita de la radiko.

I think you could add "oficiale" to that list. Although there is an informal sense of the word "student," in practice it denotes an official status, and "-isto" carries that meaning as well.

The word "studisto" isn't seen much (if at all), but I don't think it can be called incorrect. It's analogous to the situation with "redaktoro", which is superfluous because "redaktisto" is available.

Afterthought: We also have "prezidento" and "prezidanto", where "prezidanto" denotes the one who is presiding at the moment, but "prezidento" is the president. One could say "prezidisto" instead of "prezidento," but the connection between "prezidi" and "prezidento" is looser than the connection between "studi" and "studento."

mnlg (הצגת פרופיל) 3 באוקטובר 2007, 07:32:03

T0dd:The Reta Vortaro gives a fairly broad definition of "-isto": Personon, kiu profesie, daŭre, prefere aŭ ofte sin okupas pri la afero difinita de la radiko
I'm not a lexicographer, but it does seem too broad, and not precise. Would you define "komunistoj" as those who often occupy themselves with "komunoj"? okulumo.gif

Seriously though, even assuming it means that, by using "studisto" you would end up with someone who occupies themselves, preferably or professionally, with studying (not necessarily with knowing, though; only with studying), and is primarily recognized because of that. I'm not sure I can visualize that. I believe you could say "fakulo" or "spertulo" for what you seem to have in mind.
The word "studisto" isn't seen much (if at all), but I don't think it can be called incorrect.
It's not a question of being correct (as long as you respect the grammar your words will be correct) but of having an appropriate meaning, adherent to what you are trying to communicate, and for the aforementioned reasons, "studisto" does not seem to carry it, at least for me.

You might want to ask the opinion of the Konsultejo (http://www.akademio-de-esperanto.org/konsultejo/in...).

Betka (הצגת פרופיל) 3 באוקטובר 2007, 17:41:55

If we accept that to be a "studisto", you must be making a living with it that would mean that a student on a full scholarship (room + meals + tuition + other expenses) is a "studisto", because he earns his meals and accommodation by studying.

So I think that the definition

studisto=one who makes a living by studying

might not be exactly correct.

T0dd (הצגת פרופיל) 3 באוקטובר 2007, 19:02:56

mnlg:
T0dd:The Reta Vortaro gives a fairly broad definition of "-isto": Personon, kiu profesie, daŭre, prefere aŭ ofte sin okupas pri la afero difinita de la radiko
I'm not a lexicographer, but it does seem too broad, and not precise. Would you define "komunistoj" as those who often occupy themselves with "komunoj"? okulumo.gif
Yes, that's another meaning of "-isto" that the ReVo definition misses, making it actually too narrow. In fact, "komunisto" is a false compound, since as you point out, it really makes little sense as "komun-isto". But "komunisto" is international, so it gets used. "Komunismano" would be more accurate, but I don't expect anyone to start using it.
Seriously though, even assuming it means that, by using "studisto" you would end up with someone who occupies themselves, preferably or professionally, with studying (not necessarily with knowing, though; only with studying), and is primarily recognized because of that. I'm not sure I can visualize that. I believe you could say "fakulo" or "spertulo" for what you seem to have in mind.
Students and experts both study. What is distinctive about experts is not that they study, but how much they have learned. What is distinctive about students is that they are officially committed to studying.
The word "studisto" isn't seen much (if at all), but I don't think it can be called incorrect.
It's not a question of being correct (as long as you respect the grammar your words will be correct) but of having an appropriate meaning, adherent to what you are trying to communicate, and for the aforementioned reasons, "studisto" does not seem to carry it, at least for me.
I mean "semantically correct." That is, I think "studisto" does in fact convey the meaning of a person whose role in life is (at the time of utterance) to be involved in studying.

mnlg (הצגת פרופיל) 3 באוקטובר 2007, 21:13:51

T0dd:[...]that's another meaning of "-isto" that the ReVo definition misses, making it actually too narrow.
I would just say that it is not reliable.

I am reaching my limits in my knowledge of the language, but at the risk of sounding too conservative, I would discard all usages of -ist- that do not point to a profession or a recognized, methodical, possibly specialized occupation. "studisto", as I already mentioned, makes me visualize a person whose job is entering a room and studying 8 hours straight, then getting out and going home, and that would be it. I'm not saying that these people do not exist, but that they aren't perhaps what most people think about when they talk about studistoj.

I really think you should bring this to the konsultejo. Perhaps it's been discussed in the past and they have a great answer ready. ridulo.gif

erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 4 באוקטובר 2007, 01:05:53

I will add to mnlg's definition that a serious hobbyist can also get the -ist- ending, but otherwise I agree with him. i.e. biciklisto, fotografisto, etc. these people may not be professionals but they are seriously involved with what they do; a "bicyclist" is not the same as someone who uses a bicycle on occasion, nor is a "photographer" the same as someone who never touches a camera except to take one or two pictures at the holiday table.

T0dd (הצגת פרופיל) 5 באוקטובר 2007, 01:25:29

This is interesting, and I think I will take it to the konsultejo, and see what they have to say. I have an older PIV here, and the definition there is exactly the same as the one at ReVo. "Personon, kiu profesie, daŭre, prefere aŭ ofte sin okupas pri la afero difinita de la radiko." It adds a second definition, "Adepton aŭ subtenanton de io teorio, skolo, doktrino; ismano". I actually think that Erinja's gloss, i.e., someone "seriously involved with what they do" is a good one. And that would certainly include students.

But let's see what Konsultejo says...

mnlg (הצגת פרופיל) 5 באוקטובר 2007, 07:48:38

T0dd:I actually think that Erinja's gloss, i.e., someone "seriously involved with what they do" is a good one. And that would certainly include students.
My "definition" did include "a recognized, methodical, possibly specialized occupation", which didn't mean to be professional; I was already pointing to the, let's say, "serious hobbyist". okulumo.gif

To sum it up, I would use -ist- to point to someone that can be identified by a profession or a skill (or as you mention, in some cases, membership in a doctrine). If one of my friends likes to take pictures now and then, I wouldn't use fot[ograf]isto to point to him or her. I would say perhaps fot[ograf]emulo. If one of my friends is either a professional carpenter, or very skilled in carpentry, I would then use ĉarpentisto.

Can you acquire a skill in studying, high enough to be identified by others through your ability to study? I guess you can but, again, I'm not sure this is what one might think about when using "studisto".

I'd be glad to know the answer of the Konsultejo, if you'll be so kind to forward it here.

Betka (הצגת פרופיל) 9 בנובמבר 2007, 21:02:12

Did you receive a reply from the konsultejo yet?

It can't believe it has been a month, maybe the konsultejo can't agree either rido.gif. I'm looking forward to their response, surely this must have been asked before?

BasCostBudde (הצגת פרופיל) 10 בנובמבר 2007, 21:24:38

A component to a profession would be to make money out of one's activities. I haste to add that not each and every profession is profitable. But being a student certainly is not: you're not student to make money. On the very contrary ridulo.gif

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