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Newspaper clipping from 1911: "Ido or Esperanto?"

od uživatele chrisim101010 ze dne 28. července 2012

Příspěvky: 104

Jazyk: English

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 8:56:47

since they make up maybe 10% of all the words you'll encounter in Esperanto. I think 10% might be a bit high, but probably not by much.
Perhaps, but in whatever percentage it is, it is only a small number of them that are really used frequently.

Consider the frequency of kiu compared to ĉiom.

My guess is that you could probably invent a mnemonic sentence or a fabeleto which incorporated the most frequent ones. There's a job for someone.

chrisim101010 (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 10:22:42

Mi volas ĉiom
Mi volas ĉiom
Mi volas ĉiom
kaj mi volas ĝin nun

Hmmm, it almost fits.
(I hope i do not need an English translation lango.gif)

314 Rory (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 11:23:53

Back to topic: A friend told me he thought the French rejected Esperanto and invented Ido because "it wasn't French enough." If you look at what that old letter said, that was basically the basis of his argument for Ido.

When I first looked at Esperanto text it wasn't the 'hats' that made it look weird, so much as the "oj" and "aj" endings to so many of the words. Even as a complete novice I could recognise a number of the words. Of course, I'd also found out by then that Esperanto was created by a Polish Jew, and a little later discovered that the "j" ending is more common in Eastern European languages. So I thought, "well, it's supposed to be and international language, so why should it only be easy and familiar for Western Europeans?" It also surprised me that it did so well in Russia initially, as both their alphabet and their vocabulary are radically different to ours.

I guess that Ido's mistake was to assume that Western European languages were the only acceptable standard. My superficial browsing of the Wikipedia page on Ido made it seem like while there were some minor improvements (from my view point as a native English speaker), they also managed to make it a lot more complex for people who don't know any Western European language. For example the Ido-ists got rid of the table of correlatives and replaced them with things that sounded more like the Latin based languages. While this made things easier for them, the rest of us would be faced with yet more brute vocabulary memorisation.

chrisim101010 (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 13:17:36

The biggest mistake that some people make, as I read it, is to assume that Esperanto did not succeed due to its design. In my experience, technical design is not a big factor when people make decisions about technical stuff.
I was a bit concerned when I posted the article that this would become another nauseating debate about language design. Fortunately, that hasn't happened.

creedelambard (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 15:44:49

sudanglo:My guess is that you could probably invent a mnemonic sentence or a fabeleto which incorporated the most frequent ones. There's a job for someone.
Jen rakonto pri kvar uloj nomata Ĉiu, Iu, Tiu kaj Neniu.

Estis farenda tasko, tre grava, kaj Ĉiu pensis ke Iu farus ĝin.

Iu povus fari ĝin, sed Neniu ja faris ĝin.

Tiu koleris ĉar Ĉiu estis taskita.

Ĉiu pensis ke Iu kaj Tiu povus fari ĝin, sed Neniu sciis ke Ĉiu ne farus ĝin.

Fine Ĉiu kulpigis Tiun kiam Neniu faris tion, kion Iu povus fari.
OK, maybe that's not as helpful as I thought it would be. (And probably has errors besides.)

creedelambard (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 15:47:01

chrisim101010:Mi volas ĉiom
Mi volas ĉiom
Mi volas ĉiom
kaj mi volas ĝin nun

Hmmm, it almost fits.
(I hope i do not need an English translation lango.gif)
mdr ridego.gif

Sed kie vi metus ĉiom, se vi havus ĝin? (Mia edzino diras: "Ĉie!" )

creedelambard (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 15:58:14

chrisim101010:The biggest mistake that some people make, as I read it, is to assume that Esperanto did not succeed due to its design. In my experience, technical design is not a big factor when people make decisions about technical stuff.
I was a bit concerned when I posted the article that this would become another nauseating debate about language design. Fortunately, that hasn't happened.
Designing a language is harder than it looks. Getting it to succeed is apparently even harder. I think Esperanto succeeded because Zamenhof put almost two decades into laying the groundwork for it in polishing the language, taking it for test drives, and the like; although there was most likely a Certain amount of luck, or circumstance if you will, involved too.

That said, people don't usually care about design per se unless it really gets in the way. They just want to get things done. People don't buy Macs because they're well designed; they buy them because Macs will let them do stuff. Likewise, nobody learns Esperanto or any other language because of the design. The language is just a tool to get stuff done. IMO one of the reasons Volapük bombed is because it sounded like a good idea, but the design of the language got in the way of actually doing things with it.

razlem (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 17:10:28

Likewise, nobody learns Esperanto or any other language because of the design.
I would say that many people do learn EO because of its design, and that its design is one of the biggest factors in its success.

creedelambard (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 18:09:00

razlem:I would say that many people do learn EO because of its design, and that its design is one of the biggest factors in its success.
Well, I would agree that Esperanto's design is a huge factor in its success, and that the design makes it easier for people to learn and use. But learning Esperanto because it has a rational correlative table or because of the way verbs are conjugated? That's what I mean by "design."

Then again this may be six of one, half a dozen of the other.

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 16. srpna 2012 20:11:23

chrisim101010:mi volas ĉiom
kaj mi volas ĝin nun
creedelambard:Sed kien vi metus ĉiom, se vi havus ĝin? (Mia edzino diras: "Ĉien!" )
You wouldn't necessarily need that much space to store ĉiom. It depends da kio it is ĉiom. On the other hand storing ĉion might be a problem.

Ĉiom means all of it, rather than everything, though the word is so infrequently used that its meaning in practice is perhaps not well defined.

Du eŭrojn kaj kelkajn cendojn! Tio estas ĉiom, kiom mi havas ĉe mi en la nuna momento

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