Повідомлення: 104
Мова: English
chrisim101010 (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 10:18:05
sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 10:53:55
It seems to me that the big issue in the world of the 21st century is going to be not Esperanto versus some other variant of the concept of a neutral constructed language, not even Esperanto versus English.
The big issue is going to be Esperanto versus machine translation.
If Esperanto doesn't survive that, then its days are numbered.
In a recent radio interview here in the UK some dignitary from a language learning association said that whilst foreign language teaching is in decline, some 70% of UK residents in a survey thought it important to know a foreign language, despite the dominance of English as a lingua franca.
The argument was advanced, that learning a foreign language gave an international perspective even if it was of little practical relevance.
This argument, of course, applies in spades to the teaching of Esperanto and maybe this can be used to stave off the coming threat from progress in machine translation.
Esperanto's Achilles heel has always been the number of speakers and thereby the practical usefulness of the language. Shifting the argument to the educational value of learning Esperanto perhaps holds some promise for the future.
Demian (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 12:38:05
sudanglo:Esperanto's Achilles heel has always been the number of speakers and thereby the practical usefulness of the language.Agreed. Also, I would like to add that of the 100,000 or more Lernu! users, less than 5,000 list themselves as fluent. If it's rare to find an Esperanto speaker, fluent speakers are ever harder to locate.
sudanglo:Shifting the argument to the educational value of learning Esperanto perhaps holds some promise for the future.I think we shouldn't emphasise too much on the propaedeutic value of Esperanto. Though it's true that learning Esperanto gives you an advantage in the study of more languages, that is true of any language.
darkweasel (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 14:44:27
OMG.
fajrkapo (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 16:03:19
Ĉu estas hodiaŭ Idotago?
Ido, ido ido ido...everywhere!!!! Ĉie!!!!
bartlett22183 (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 19:43:53
sudanglo:As regards the issue 'Esperanto or Ido' the result is quite clear. Esperanto decisively won the day. However many adherents of Ido there might have been in 1911, you would be very hard pushed to find a speaker today.Certainly Esperanto won the day. However, I do not think that Ido is quite as dead as some Esperantists might think, especially with the advent of the Internet. I follow several Internet fora conducted largely or entirely in Ido, and people continue to produce both new materials and translations. There are a few conferences in which people actually speak Ido. So it is not dead. But, yes, for whatever reasons, it never overcame Esperanto.
sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 21:13:34
Demian:The suggested position is not that we should argue for the propaedeutic value of Esperanto, making Esperanto some sort of lesser language only to be learnt to facilitate the important business of learning a real foreign language.sudanglo:Shifting the argument to the educational value of learning Esperanto perhaps holds some promise for the future.I think we shouldn't emphasise too much on the propaedeutic value of Esperanto. Though it's true that learning Esperanto gives you an advantage in the study of more languages, that is true of any language.
It is rather to argue that in an English-speaking world where foreign language learning is in decline on the grounds of irrelevance, Esperanto will more quickly deliver the educational benefits of learning a foreign language, with little of the rote chores and precious time consumption associated with learning a national language.
So the argument is teach Esperanto instead of teaching French, German, Spanish whatever, because educationally you get more bang for your buck. And better to learn Esperanto than no foreign language at all.
Those who actually need a command of some national foreign language (and these will be few) will not have wasted their time. At this point the propaedeutic argument can be deployed, but it is not the main thrust of the suggested position.
Only when there is a substantial body of speakers with basic Esperanto (as might be acquired in school) can one convincingly argue the case for Esperanto as a lingua franca.
The Esperanto movement needs to develop a persuasive position to turn 2 million speakers into 100 million, and the theoretical arguments about its suitablity as a lingua franca have so far been ineffective. A different tack has to be taken.
sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 28 липня 2012 р. 21:27:34
Demian:It is only to be expected that at a site whose primary purpose is the teaching of the language to those who do not know it, few registrants will rate themselves as fluent.sudanglo:Esperanto's Achilles heel has always been the number of speakers and thereby the practical usefulness of the language.Agreed. Also, I would like to add that of the 100,000 or more Lernu! users, less than 5,000 list themselves as fluent. If it's rare to find an Esperanto speaker, fluent speakers are ever harder to locate.
Those who have done so are probably, like myself, interested in helping out, or influencing the thinking of new generation of speakers with regard to the politics of the Esperanto movement.
acdibble (Переглянути профіль) 29 липня 2012 р. 05:48:09
sudanglo:However many adherents of Ido there might have been in 1911, you would be very hard pushed to find a speaker today.Ka vu ne parolas Ido?
They're out there.
SPX (Переглянути профіль) 30 липня 2012 р. 20:03:23
bartlett22183:I can't remember where I read it or what the specifics were, but I did read something recently that suggested that Ido was actually on the rise to some extent. Apparently this was based upon a number of Internet forums/groups whose numbers were going up and whose members were mostly quite young (in their 20s or around there).
Certainly Esperanto won the day. However, I do not think that Ido is quite as dead as some Esperantists might think, especially with the advent of the Internet. I follow several Internet fora conducted largely or entirely in Ido, and people continue to produce both new materials and translations. There are a few conferences in which people actually speak Ido. So it is not dead. But, yes, for whatever reasons, it never overcame Esperanto.