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Verb help

de EldanarLambetur, 16 août 2012

Messages : 25

Langue: English

EldanarLambetur (Voir le profil) 16 août 2012 20:48:39

Perhaps I've just confused myself, and the answer is simple, but I have a problem. And I think it again revolves around my English usage of "would". I've checked my last question about "would" and don't think those solutions apply here.

I have a story that is being written in the past tense. He went there... they did this...

Now imagine an example like this:

"Each day, when the shops shut and the music went away, he would get up and return to the bridge under which he slept. Once there, he would be greeted by the other homeless."

Okay, I'm pretty sure the first bit could be "Ĉiu tago, kiam la butikoj fermiĝis kaj la muziko foriris".

Now, the first "would" is similar to the situation in my other question, where a verb like "emi" in the past tense may suit. Except I don't want tendency; I want, without fail he always gets up.

So do I just put the simple past tense? "li ekstaris kaj revenis al ponto, sub kiu li dormis"

Again, with the next use of "would", does the simple past tense sound weird, as it would in English:

"Each day, when the shops shut and the music went away, he would get up and return to the bridge under which he slept. Once there, he was greeted by the other homeless."

Using the simple past in English suddenly makes an habitual event sound like a one off. Is that the case in Esperanto?

I didn't really want to resort to some use of "-ad", because it kind of makes it sound like repetitive greeting to me, is that wrong?

RiotNrrd (Voir le profil) 16 août 2012 21:02:36

EldanarLambetur:"Each day, when the shops shut and the music went away, he would get up and return to the bridge under which he slept. Once there, he would be greeted by the other homeless."
Each day, blahblahblahblahblah, he would get up and...
Each day, blahblahblahblahblah, he got up and...

I see those as equivalent. Personally, I'd use the simple past tense, even if the meaning was only "pretty close". Simple is better.

Chainy (Voir le profil) 16 août 2012 21:14:07

EldanarLambetur:"Each day, when the shops shut and the music went away, he would get up and return to the bridge under which he slept. Once there, he would be greeted by the other homeless."
= Ĉiutage, post fermo de la vendejoj kaj malapero de la muziko, li ekstaris kaj revenis al la ponto, sub kiu li dormis. Tie la aliaj senhejmuloj ĉiam bonvenigis lin.

Instead of 'would', just throw in words like 'every day', 'always', 'often' etc.

creedelambard (Voir le profil) 16 août 2012 21:31:07

Chainy:
EldanarLambetur:"Each day, when the shops shut and the music went away, he would get up and return to the bridge under which he slept. Once there, he would be greeted by the other homeless."
= Ĉiutage, post fermo de la vendejoj kaj malapero de la muziko, li ekstaris kaj revenis al la ponto, sub kiu li dormis. Tie la aliaj senhejmuloj ĉiam bonvenigis lin.

Instead of 'would', just throw in words like 'every day', 'always', 'often' etc.
On a slightly different tack, I'd throw in a bit more descriptive language. "Ĉiutage, post la vendejoj fermis kaj la muziko malkreskis al kvieto . . . "

Chainy (Voir le profil) 16 août 2012 21:40:35

creedelambard:On a slightly different tack, I'd throw in a bit more descriptive language. "Ĉiutage, post la vendejoj fermis kaj la muziko malkreskis al kvieto . . . "
You have to say "...post KIAM la vendejoj fermIĜIs..."

creedelambard (Voir le profil) 16 août 2012 22:12:44

Chainy:
creedelambard:On a slightly different tack, I'd throw in a bit more descriptive language. "Ĉiutage, post la vendejoj fermis kaj la muziko malkreskis al kvieto . . . "
You have to say "...post KIAM la vendejoj fermIĜIs..."
OK, you got me there. I get tripped up on transitive verbs more often than I'd like. that's why I'm here, to try and get better at this stuff.

Hyperboreus (Voir le profil) 17 août 2012 02:57:02

Forigite

razlem (Voir le profil) 17 août 2012 04:00:57

Hyperboreus:If you move "when the music went away, he would get up" to the present tense, it would look something like "when the music goes away, he will get up".

So basically the "would" here is not a subjunctive/conditional, but simply the past tense of "will"...
It's still conditional (in both tenses) because you have "when/if X happens". But I don't know if conditional logic works the same way in Esperanto.

tommjames (Voir le profil) 17 août 2012 07:59:09

Contex is often sufficient to be clear on whether you're referring to habitual or one-off actions. In this case it's made clear right at the beginning in the first two words "Each day". I would just use simple tense here, in both sentences.

EldanarLambetur (Voir le profil) 17 août 2012 10:18:58

Thanks for all the help!

razlem:It's still conditional (in both tenses) because you have "when/if X happens". But I don't know if conditional logic works the same way in Esperanto.
I'm pretty sure that in Esperanto the conditional can't apply here, because the conditional (or imaga-modo) is for describing non-real events that could happen. Whereas, here, we've got some past events, that definitely happened every single day. Even if you can construct the equivalent sentiment with "when/if" statements, it still talks about real events, so the Esperanto conditional isn't appropriate (see the comparison of real/non-real in "if" statements on this PMEG page under the subtitle "US en se-frazoj" )

--

So, my main goal here was to see if the simple past in Esperanto in this case, has the same weirdness that I feel in English when I use the simple past. And it sounds like you're all saying it's fine in Esperanto. So thanks! ridego.gif

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