Berichten: 72
Taal: English
Wilhelm (Profiel tonen) 24 augustus 2012 18:43:26
If we had Esperanto as a choice, people could actually learn a language, and not pretend to learn it.
sudanglo:I couldn't agree more.
This surely is the most powerful argument for Esperanto in the schools - assuming you believe that there is some educational value in foreign language learning.
The number of people who were taught a foreign national language at school but ended up not getting to point where that could actually make a sentence freely in that language (let alone get to a position where they could use that language knowledge to get to know another culture) must run in hundreds of thousands if not millions.
In Canada we have compulsory French language lessons from grade 4 to grade 9. In this time almost no one gets beyond the most basic level of proficiency and because it is only compulsory until grade 9, it is quickly forgotten. We might as well not even wasted the time.
If the goal is to produce french speakers (French being one of our nation's two official languages, the goal should indeed be to produce French speakers), we have to admit that current methods have failed. But if previously studies are correct and there is a propaedeutic value in Esperanto, I would think it's introduction could be of great benefit towards the achievement of this goal.
erinja (Profiel tonen) 24 augustus 2012 19:24:27
Yes, it's possible to have 10 years of French classes and still not learn French. And it's also possible to have 10 years of Esperanto classes and still not learn Esperanto.
If you aren't interested enough, if you do only the minimum, you can definitely fail to learn Esperanto, even after years of study (see: eternaj komencantoj. And they have even volunteered to learn!)
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Let's drop the Dvorak topic, please. It's off-topic for this thread. You can go start a new thread in one of the Esperanto forums if you want to battle it out.
Teapot (Profiel tonen) 24 augustus 2012 19:48:36
Springboard2Languages seems relevant and interesting.
Vestitor (Profiel tonen) 24 augustus 2012 20:48:57
erinja:I would never underestimate the ability of students not to learn.Is this quite right? In schools few pupils are interested in or motivated about learning e.g mathematics (some are) it's just compulsory. The trick then is in the teaching and learning methods and in the relative difficulty or simplicity of the discipline.
Yes, it's possible to have 10 years of French classes and still not learn French. And it's also possible to have 10 years of Esperanto classes and still not learn Esperanto.
If you aren't interested enough, if you do only the minimum, you can definitely fail to learn Esperanto, even after years of study (see: eternaj komencantoj. And they have even volunteered to learn!)
It's already established that Esperanto requires less time and possibly less effort to learn to a reasonable standard, as a result of the reduced complexity in comparison to other languages. Just half the effort expended on French is enough to propel one further in Esperanto. Eternal beginners probably have extra reasons for following the groups and ideas they do, the eternal beginner syndrome is not unique to Esperanto..
French and German are not as easy as some people like to imagine yet they form the core of most language departments. There's more than interest and effort behind the problems of foreign language acquisition in schools.
hebda999 (Profiel tonen) 24 augustus 2012 21:07:56
Once the mind has been reprogrammed, it can be programmed again and again. For that reason the acquisition of second foreign language is much easier. But the authorities will never allow this solution - many see Esperanto as a total waste of time and they prefer more costly and less economic way of action, because they fail to see the Esperanto as an ally and not an enemy, so we have to wait.
sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 24 augustus 2012 21:57:33
Yes, it's possible to have 10 years of French classes and still not learn FrenchThis I believe.
it's also possible to have 10 years of Esperanto classes and still not learn EsperantoThis I find hard to credit.
Does it take longer than one minute to grasp that -as -is and -os apply to all verbs and all subjects? Within two minutes you can also grasp that anything can be a verb provided it makes sense (ie the meaning is reasonably guessable).
I doubt that most students learning French with its abundance of irregular verbs and variation of verb with subject could reliably form the past, present and future of all verbs in French within one year of normal school classes.
erinja (Profiel tonen) 25 augustus 2012 03:32:45
sudanglo:Does it take longer than one minute to grasp that -as -is and -os apply to all verbs and all subjects?That's true but people can forget which one is which, with regard to tense, and mess up a hundred other things. This is where 'eternaj komencantoj' come from. They have a decent degree of passive understanding but lack the ability to really have a conversation, because they simply aren't able to come up with a coherent sentence.
I think this is where school learning of languages largely fails, by the way. I knew people in my high school Latin classes who were able to pass quizzes that asked about vocabulary words and verb tables, but when they were asked to translate a simple sentence from Latin to English, they found it incredibly difficult (let alone going the other direction!)
hebda999 (Profiel tonen) 25 augustus 2012 07:37:12
sudanglo:Does it take longer than one minute to grasp that -as -is and -os apply to all verbs and all subjects? Within two minutes you can also grasp that anything can be a verb provided it makes sense (ie the meaning is reasonably guessable).Give it two hours - the idea of roots is very strange to most people, I myself could appreciate this design only after relatively long time (say a year or two).
Nevertheless Esperanto has hard part too: namely the transitivity of verbs. This feature is easier with English, but at least the verb is only transitive or not (if it is both than in each case the meaning is different, they say). So, to write something more than for close friends, one needs a good dictionary to check the transitivity - I do it all the time.
Hyperboreus (Profiel tonen) 25 augustus 2012 07:57:04
darkweasel (Profiel tonen) 25 augustus 2012 08:03:57
if your native language, like many including english, has one word for the ideas of komenci and komenciĝi, then you find these words difficult.
german at least colloquially often uses "hören" for both aŭdi and aŭskulti. german speakers thus have a problem with this in english, french, esperanto, ... it is the same thing as with komenc(iĝ)i. i think it is possible and advisable to avoid confusing linguistic terms like "transitive" when explaining komenc(iĝ)i, duŝ(iĝ)i, rul(iĝ)i and so on.