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Intonation

від sudanglo, 23 серпня 2012 р.

Повідомлення: 40

Мова: English

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 23 серпня 2012 р. 09:46:11

One thing that Zamenhof never specified for Esperanto, and seems to be rarely discussed even by the ardent liguisticians among us, is what are the rules for intonation in Esperanto.

I noticed during my years of teaching English to foreigners that they would fail to communicate effectively even when they had the right words in the right order because of their intonation.

However, when I watch Drama on French TV, I am never flummoxed by the intonation of the actors. I immediate know if someone is being wheedling or menacing or hesitant or domineering or rhetorical or genuinely questioning.

Similarly when talking with alilandanoj in Esperanto, I have rarely find myself getting the wrong end of the stick, or being misunderstood.

The only instances I can recall of that, are when I have begun with 'Kiam' and have been interrupted before the end of the sentence because the other party has assumed I was asking a Kiam question rather than proceeding to the question proper -eg Kiam vi alvenis, (slight pause -interruption) ĉu vi rimarkis ...?

I wonder, are there pan-European conventions about intonation, or does the absence of problems arise from a tendency towards to being very explicit in the choice of words and sentence formulation when we speak Esperanto?

For example. In English we might use I don't think so with different intonations, to convey uncertainty on the one hand, or rejection/disapproval on the other.

Does the problem disappear when using Esperanto because without hesitation one would use different sentences for the two meanings? Mi ne certas, sed mi supozas, ke ne or Tion, mi ne povas permesi.

Vespero_ (Переглянути профіль) 23 серпня 2012 р. 14:58:55

I have a lot of trouble defining intonations, so I never really think about it much. I can tell when something is wrong (moreso, it seems, than most) but I can't tell you what's wrong about it, only attempt to generate the correct intonation (which I struggle with greatly).

In Esperanto, I've never noticed anything unusual with intonation, though my ear is still a bit underdeveloped.

In some ways, Esperanto makes sense whether or not you get the intonation "correct" because of the way the language is structured. Questions are marked, emphatics are defined, ktp.

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 23 серпня 2012 р. 17:55:23

In some ways, Esperanto makes sense whether or not you get the intonation "correct" because of the way the language is structured. Questions are marked, emphatics are defined, ktp
Yes, perhaps that is the answer as to why intonation doesn't seem to be a problem in Esperanto.

Still that leaves unanswered why I have no difficulty when watching French TV in picking up nuances from the rhythm/melody of the speech the actors in a drama.

Yet I have so often heard alilandanoj trying to speak English (even speakers of French) make a complete mess of the intonation, coming across as though they meant something quite different to what I reasonably guess they meant, or seeming to strike an attitude which I guess they didn't intend.

hebda999 (Переглянути профіль) 23 серпня 2012 р. 21:29:50

sudanglo:
Yet I have so often heard alilandanoj trying to speak English (even speakers of French) make a complete mess of the intonation, coming across as though they meant something quite different to what I reasonably guess they meant, or seeming to strike an attitude which I guess they didn't intend.
It is simple - English is phonetically weird and the one spoken in England especially. One more reason it should be not "international". The other explanation might be that that English is no longer English and the English have to get used to it or learn it anew - there are more foreigners struggling to speak the language than the number of natives themselves.

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 23 серпня 2012 р. 23:30:20

English has many situations where intonation defines the meaning of a word.

If the same word can be a noun or a verb, for example, it's often intonation that tells us which one it is.

Esperanto separates things more, as does, I believe, French, so maybe intonation is not quite so important in those languages.

In addition, I think you have quite a high level of French if you're watching French TV with no subtitles, so it may be that when you were more of a beginner, you wouldn't find things quite as obvious and clear as you do now.

Bruso (Переглянути профіль) 24 серпня 2012 р. 02:34:48

sudanglo:One thing that Zamenhof never specified for Esperanto, and seems to be rarely discussed even by the ardent liguisticians among us, is what are the rules for intonation in Esperanto.
I've sometimes wondered if that was (implicitly) included in his advice to pronounce Esperanto like Italian.

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 24 серпня 2012 р. 10:12:09

Chainy, you have a point that one's delivery is necessarily going to be more monotonically Dalek if you are searching for each word.

But the instances that I encountered were more of the foreigner producing a sentence with a melody that in the mouth of a native speaker of English would have a totally different implication than the one which you could reason from the circumstances was intended by the foreign learner.

Erinja I do watch French TV with the subtitles (in French) for the hard of hearing turned on. My French isn't that good, and I practically never speak French and have never explicity learnt whatever intonation systems are employed by native French speakers.

Yet, even when I miss (or don't know) certain words in a sentence (which often happens), I seem to be able to pick up whether the actor is being sarcastic or ironic, asking a genuine question or being rhetorical, condescending or sympathetic, and all the other meaning and attitudinal information conveyed by intonation.

Now you could argue that I am deceiving myself and getting clues from the faces and body language of the actors, and maybe that is part of it . But I have the strong impression I am hearing the meaning and would be able to tell even if I closed my eyes.

Clearly, it seems reasonable to suppose that the actors are not using English intonation with French words. So how does it work?

Why do alilandanaj Esperantistoj not unsettle me with apparently wrong intonation, but foreign learners of English do, with their intonation in English.

Altebrilas (Переглянути профіль) 25 серпня 2012 р. 17:44:25

Sudanglo:
In the theater play "Pour un oui ou pour un non", written by Nathalie Sarraute (en. "For no good reason"), the entire play is about the intonation of a man's answer to his friend: "that's good...that".
They start with that statement and end with the conclusion that their lifestyles and personalities are incompatible...
some excerpts, with english translation

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 5 вересня 2012 р. 19:41:47

Quote from John Wells concerning intonation in English. Read it and weep those proponents of English as a solution to the Language Problem.

Cetere estas klare, ke en la (denaska) angla lingvo oni faras per tono multajn distingojn, kiujn alilingvanoj ne perceptas. Ekzemple, en la angla oni uzas falantan-leviĝantan tonon por indiki interalie implicon, partan aserton, ĝentilan ĝustigon, ktp. Kredeble tiuj kiuj ne parolas la anglan denaske simple ne kaptas tiun parton de la mesaĝo.

sudanglo (Переглянути профіль) 5 вересня 2012 р. 20:08:22

An interesting example again from the same lecture by John Wells.

Suppose someone says Vi devus aĉeti komputilon

and you wish to reply protestingly that you have already got one (which as a native speaker of English you would probably indicate by intonation - rising on 'got' and falling on 'one', how would you handle this in Esperanto?

Consider these alternatives:

(i) Sed mi jam havas komputilon!
(ii) Sed komputilon mi jam havas!

Which do you prefer and how would your frazmelodio differ?

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