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A bit of Biblical translation*

od uživatele richardhall ze dne 30. srpna 2012

Příspěvky: 21

Jazyk: English

richardhall (Ukázat profil) 30. srpna 2012 11:12:58

In Galatians 2:16 we read "...we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ...". That last "faith in Christ", in the original greek text is a genitive "pistewv cristou" and it is a matter of debate whether "the faith of Christ" would be a better English translation. (Technically, the argument is over whether the genitive is subjective or objective)

The usual Esperanto translation has "fido al Jesuo Kristo" but if I wanted to go with a subjective understanding, should that be "fido el Kristo" or "fido de Kristo"? Or would it be legitimate to sidestep the issue and go with "fido je Kristo"?

*Hope no one objects to bringing up the Bible. I'm only wanting to talk about the translation issue, not the theology!

darkweasel (Ukázat profil) 30. srpna 2012 18:36:22

fido al kristo = objective
fido de kristo = subjective or objective
fido je kristo = objective
fido el kristo = ???

richardhall (Ukázat profil) 30. srpna 2012 18:53:08

darkweasel:fido al kristo = objective
fido de kristo = subjective or objective
fido je kristo = objective
fido el kristo = ???
So 'fido de kristo' may be translated 'faith of Christ' or 'faith in Christ'? I hadn't appreciated that.

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 30. srpna 2012 19:04:50

In order to see if a translation is good you have to understand the original. Not being a speaker of ancient Greek, I couldn't comment.

However, both the English text which you have quoted and the Esperanto Bible's text ni mem en Kristo Jesuo kredis, por ke ni praviĝu per fido al Kristo leave me scratching my head as to the meaning.

NJ Esperantist (Ukázat profil) 30. srpna 2012 20:03:12

sudanglo:In order to see if a translation is good you have to understand the original. Not being a speaker of ancient Greek, I couldn't comment.

However, both the English text which you have quoted and the Esperanto Bible's text ni mem en Kristo Jesuo kredis, por ke ni praviĝu per fido al Kristo leave me scratching my head as to the meaning.
Don't fret, Sudanglo, you're not alone. Saint Paul is equally hard to read/understand in English as he is in Esperanto. I can't speak for Ancient Greek either.

darkweasel (Ukázat profil) 30. srpna 2012 20:04:44

richardhall:
darkweasel:fido al kristo = objective
fido de kristo = subjective or objective
fido je kristo = objective
fido el kristo = ???
So 'fido de kristo' may be translated 'faith of Christ' or 'faith in Christ'? I hadn't appreciated that.
theoretically, but in this case it is more likely to be understood in the subjective sense. there are cases when both interpretations are equally likely (la venko de la angloj).

orthohawk (Ukázat profil) 31. srpna 2012 4:28:58

richardhall:In Galatians 2:16 we read "...we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ...". That last "faith in Christ", in the original greek text is a genitive "pistewv cristou" and it is a matter of debate whether "the faith of Christ" would be a better English translation. (Technically, the argument is over whether the genitive is subjective or objective)

The usual Esperanto translation has "fido al Jesuo Kristo" but if I wanted to go with a subjective understanding, should that be "fido el Kristo" or "fido de Kristo"? Or would it be legitimate to sidestep the issue and go with "fido je Kristo"?

*Hope no one objects to bringing up the Bible. I'm only wanting to talk about the translation issue, not the theology!
The ideal would be to be sure that the Greek words are being translated correctly: one must remember that in Greek, "pistis" (the nominative form of "pisteos" ) also means "fidelity, faithfulness" and followed by what is clearly the genitive Iisou Khristou, would indicate that the "faith" (as in the KJV) is not our "faith" but the fidelity exhibited by Christ, IOW an even better translation than "faith of Christ" would be "faithfullness/fidelity of Christ." To translate the Greek genitive by the English "in X" or, worse, the Esperanto "dative" is a prime illustration of the old Italian idiom "traduttore, traditore" "the translator is a traitor"

Also, to translate a science text, you need to come at it from a scientific standpoint, keeping the science in mind. Likewise, to translate a theological text, you really can't divorce (pardon the pun) the translating process from the theology of the text; you really can't separate the two.

richardhall (Ukázat profil) 31. srpna 2012 7:43:34

Thanks Orthohawk. I'm aware of all that, of course -- I just didn't want to be setting up a conversation about theology in a language forum. Personally, I favour the subjective reading of this text. My question, in a nutshell, was how that translation might be expressed in Esperanto. In particular, whether the preposition 'je' might have a role: I found the idea that there might be a simple way of containing both meanings appealing, though it seems I was wrong about that.

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 31. srpna 2012 10:12:33

To deal with the ambiguity in the venko de la angloj (were the English defeated, or did they defeat sombody else), modern Esperanto can make use of the preposition 'far'.

La amo de Kristo can be disambiguated with la amo al Kristo. Some have suggested la amo na Kristo, but I think this will prove to be still-born

tommjames (Ukázat profil) 31. srpna 2012 10:30:25

sudanglo:modern Esperanto can make use of the preposition 'far'.
This requires some qualification. Specifically: "if you're not interested in speaking actual Esperanto".

sudanglo:Some have suggested la amo na Kristo, but I think this will prove to be still-born
"will prove" needs changing to "has proven".

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