Сообщений: 81
Язык: English
Vestitor (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 0:42:34
erinja:I don't care how easy it is to learn Esperanto, you can't understand much on your first day of studying it, even passively, unless you've studied other languages before.This is an interesting comment. It seems to contradict the idea that Esperanto is a useful bridge to other more complicated languages, which is the rationale behind teaching it to primary school children.
Do you mean to suggest that Esperanto is as non-intuitive,or intuitive to the same level as natural languages?
RiotNrrd (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 1:02:43
Vestitor:Do you mean to suggest that Esperanto is as non-intuitive,or intuitive to the same level as natural languages?I don't mean to speak for erinja, but I'm guessing she means exactly what she said.
It doesn't matter how intuitive or non-intuitive a language is; there is a ramp-up period in the beginning of learning ANY language during which you aren't going to be able to effectively communicate in, or necessarily even understand very much of, it.
Certainly you are very unlikely to reach fluency on your first day.
darkweasel (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 11:29:09
Note that sometimes people who don’t speak the national language the board is in do add very good comments to a discussion, or help beginners. It may be possible to solve this as follows: You can mark a post in a national language forum as "requesting translation to (national language)". Then, it does not show up immediately but just as "1 post requesting translation to (national language)" and other users who speak both Esperanto and the national language can translate it. Then both the original Esperanto and the translation contributed by a user would show up.
This may be technically somewhat complicated and I am not sure if it is worth the pain, however.
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 11:40:06
And what learner would be participating in the forums on his first day of study?
Rather than suggesting that Google translate should be used to create a post in broken English (not something I am not happy to read), it would be better to suggest that beginners desperate to understand the occasional post in Esperanto in some thread largely written in English, should use Google Translate to aid their comprehension.
Using Google Translate to understand for the freŝbakito seems fine. But using Google Translate to communicate seems to suggest that Esperanto is irrelevant - that even the Esperantists have lost faith in their central argument that Esperanto is a better solution than the national languages.
Vestitor (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 13:06:33
RiotNrrd:That's not exactly what it means though is it? The suggestion is that it's going nowhere unless a person coming to Esperanto first has a background in other languages. It's probably true, a knowledge of other languages does aid learning.Vestitor:Do you mean to suggest that Esperanto is as non-intuitive,or intuitive to the same level as natural languages?I don't mean to speak for erinja, but I'm guessing she means exactly what she said.
It doesn't matter how intuitive or non-intuitive a language is; there is a ramp-up period in the beginning of learning ANY language during which you aren't going to be able to effectively communicate in, or necessarily even understand very much of, it.
Certainly you are very unlikely to reach fluency on your first day.
I'm not offering the opinion that a person will join Lernu and expect to be conversant within the hour! Surely at least that much must be clear?
Rugxdoma (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 15:20:19
sudanglo:I think most of the problems discussed could be solved by adding one more rule to the existing site rules: "In national language fora Esperanto is allowed only if the thread has gone off topic." I think the problems would then in most cases be solved automatically, without need of a moderators intervention. More and more participants would start using Esperanto in their following postings, which would helps both their own and others' learning, some participants would become less active, without the bad feeling of having been banned, and an interesting off-topic subject could continue and most likely be followable for most participants.
The only thing that gets up my nose is over-insistence on the banning of posts in Esperanto, or the mechanical repetition of 'This is the English Forum'.
codesito (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 16:07:18
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 16:20:47
In national language forums Esperanto is allowed only if the thread has gone off topicWhy?
Isn't it perfectly possible that Forumanoj who can read the national language but not write it, might have some highly pertinent and interesting comments to make on-topic - which they could make if allowed to do so in E.
Hyperboreus (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 16:44:27
darkweasel (Показать профиль) 6 сентября 2012 г., 16:47:28
codesito:This faden better be too en eo, is not? Tiel, ne angloparolantoj ankaŭ povus opinii, is not?Sure, and it even actually is in Esperanto as well!
→ Regularo de nova lernu!