tommjames:

erinja:If we're going to load it up with automatic translations (and I believe that that API now costs money, so we can't really offer it)

Just a side point, if it's of any interest it's actually quite easy to get Google translations programatically without going through the paid API. My bot in Freenode currently does exactly this by parsing the JSON data straight off the website, using a simple routine that should be easily adaptable to whatever language lernu.net uses. I'd be happy to give the code to your devs (I have Python and C# versions available) if you ever decide to include any Google translations around the new site.

I just suppose that Google might then block the lernu! server pretty quickly. It probably doesn’t know about every IRC bot but if it’s on a big website, I am sure they will know.

If someone can read eg English but does not feel confident in posting in that language, then let them copy what they wish to respond to into the Esperanto forum, with a translation into Esperanto

Sorry, but how exactly would that work? Do you mean that the whole thread has to be translated, and all followers of that thread have then to transfer themselves.

darkweasel:I just suppose that Google might then block the lernu! server pretty quickly. It probably doesn’t know about every IRC bot but if it’s on a big website, I am sure they will know.

If they knew it was an automatic script instead of just some browser (which they won't, since the HTTP headers masquerade as Firefox) then I guess that's possible. Though I found nothing in Google's terms of service prohibiting it. Technically the bot isn't doing anything different to what your own browser does when connecting to the site, so it would surprise me if lernu.net ended up getting blocked.

If you post in a forum, you should post in the language of that forum. If you post something in a different language than the language of that forum, you also need to provide a translation in the language of that forum.

Why is this even an issue?

It doesn't single out any particular language, including Esperanto.

If you write something in Esperanto in the English forum, you need to provide an English translation.

If you write something in English in an Esperanto forum, you need to provide an Esperanto translation.

If you write something in Danish in the French forum, you need to provide a French translation.

If you write something in Spanish in the Russian forum, you need to provide a Russian translation.

I simply do not see the problem with this. It's the same rule for every forum.

RiotNrrd:Why is this even an issue?

I simply do not see the problem with this. It's the same rule for every forum.

+1

Of course, you can invent a single rule for all forums, as you have done Riot. However this does not address the issue.

I think that it would be good if someone could post Esperanto in the English (or other language) section. It should then be considered good forum etiquette for an individual proficient in said language, to provide a translation as they read the message, and before they reply to it.

1. Because this encourages the use of Esperanto in the role that it fits (aiding international communication).

2. Because this allows more individuals to contribute in more discussions. Making the site even more useful and active.

3. It will show beginners that Esperanto is incredibly simple, and they need not fear the Esperanto section.

4. It will be a great learning tool, because people will be able to see conversational Esperanto with its English equivalents.

These are very strong reasons why it would be a good idea.

I would even go so far as to encourage people to provide Esperanto translations of their English (or other language) messages into Esperanto. For all of the benefits above, but also:

To provide practice in Esperanto, in a section where other English speakers can see what you were trying to say, and can provide helpful hints as to how you may have expressed yourself better in your Esperanto translation.

sudanglo:Of course, you can invent a single rule for all forums, as you have done Riot.

Actually, that's not an invention of mine. I believe it is the current rule, simply stated clearly.

You are right in that it doesn't address the issue of non-English-speakers participating in the English forum. That's because that isn't an issue. Either they can learn to communicate in English, or they can stick to forums whose languages they *can* use for participation. I don't think it's the goal of Lernu to emphasize the use of English as the international language.

Yes, there are many interesting threads in the English forum, and not being able to compose posts in English would tend to limit participation in them. As far as I'm concerned, that's just too bad. The price of entry is pretty clear - if you want to participate in an English language thread, learn to write English (the ability to use the forum language is also the price of admission for ANY of the other forums).

It's basically the same problem I have with Spanish. I don't speak Spanish. I can't write it. I have taken no classes in it, and can't understand either the spoken or written language. Yet, the people in the Spanish forum don't seem to care about that AT ALL, and don't appear to be taking any steps to fix this "issue" with my not being able to communicate effectively in Spanish. Even though there are threads in there that I probably would want to contribute to, if I knew what they were about. But I don't, so I can't. Thus, in the face of such utter disregard for my inability to communicate in a language I don't speak, I do what any reasonable non-Spanish-speaker would do: I don't bother going to the Spanish forum.

So, to anyone who is frustrated by their inability to participate in a forum whose language is one they are unable to compose posts in, I would recommend they either
1) Learn the language to the point that they CAN compose posts in it, or
2) Avoid that forum.

EldanarLambetur:I think that it would be good if someone could post Esperanto in the English (or other language) section. It should then be considered good forum etiquette for an individual proficient in said language, to provide a translation as they read the message, and before they reply to it.

We were discussing how to act when the thread goes off topic: Then we could stop providing the translations. We want off-topic subjects to be discussed only in Esperanto, while Esperanto-related matters could be discussed either in Esperanto or the language of the thread. Then, if the Esperanto thematic is lost, the thread will gradually be transformed by the participants into an Esperanto thread.

RiotNrrd:
...Either they can learn to communicate in English, or they can stick to forums whose languages they *can* use for participation...

...Yes, there are many interesting threads in the English forum, and not being able to compose posts in English would tend to limit participation in them. As far as I'm concerned, that's just too bad...

It's basically the same problem I have with Spanish. I don't speak Spanish. I can't write it. I have taken no classes in it, and can't understand either the spoken or written language. Yet, the people in the Spanish forum don't seem to care about that AT ALL ... Thus, in the face of such utter disregard for my inability to communicate in a language I don't speak, I do what any reasonable non-Spanish-speaker would do: I don't bother going to the Spanish forum...

So, to anyone who is frustrated by their inability to participate in a forum whose language is one they are unable to compose posts in, I would recommend they either
1) Learn the language to the point that they CAN compose posts in it, or
2) Avoid that forum.

Sorry for editing your post in my quote, I've only removed sentences that weren't relevant to what I'm replying to.

I think these statements constitute a poor/disappointing attitude, and are not part of the spirit of Esperanto. If a person is having trouble communicating, let them give up or struggle? Doesn't sound right. We have an opportunity here to show people how useful Esperanto is. This is the appropriate venue after all!

So, they can understand English, but not speak it? Let them read the English posts, but communicate using our beautiful, simple language. By doing this, we aren't encouraging them to use English at all, we're encouraging them to see that their struggle with the unnecessarily complicated English, is a needless struggle, we're encouraging them to notice that Esperanto is the tool they are seeking.

Maybe their English gets better by studying the translations, but so what? In exchange for the favour of helping out their English a bit, we're helping someone ease themselves into Esperanto. People are more likely to do things that bring them benefits anyway, and I'm all for spreading Esperanto.

Eventually they may see us as such a friendly and approachable rabble that they even strive to master Esperanto.