EldanarLambetur:I think these statements constitute a poor/disappointing attitude, and are not part of the spirit of Esperanto.

Duly noted.

EldanarLambetur:So, they can understand English, but not speak it? Let them read the English posts, but communicate using our beautiful, simple language.

The English language posts are for English language speakers. That's why they are in the English language forum. The national language forums are not mixed language forums.

They aren't mixed language forums because it is expected that complete beginners likely only speak one language. Beginners who are immediately confronted by a lot of gobbledy-gook that they can't understand are likely to get intimidated, go somewhere else, and not come back. The national language forums should be places where beginners are not intimidated by a lot of gobbledy-gook they can't understand.

Sure, hopefully one day they will understand it. However, that won't be accomplished by dumping it all over their heads on day one.

EldanarLambetur:By doing this, we aren't encouraging them to use English at all, we're encouraging them to see that their struggle with the unnecessarily complicated English, is a needless struggle, we're encouraging them to notice that Esperanto is the tool they are seeking.

Yes, and I say we do that by encouraging those that can to make use of the Esperanto forums, and leave the English language threads to people who can communicate in English. Just like we leave Spanish threads to the Spanish speakers. Just like we leave Russian threads to the Russian speakers.

English should not occupy a special place here, and the rules should not be different for it than for any other language. It is not the international language on this site (or, if it is, it shouldn't be treated as such). That role should be reserved for Esperanto.

If you want the interesting posts to be in the Esperanto forums rather than the English forums, you have to PUT them there. That means spending time over there rather than over here.

Here is supposed to be for helping English-speaking beginners get answers to their questions, in English. Really, anything other than that belongs in an Esperanto thread. So, don't contribute to threads that are "other than that" over here when they belong over there.

We don't need moderators kicking bits and pieces of off-topic English posts to the curb. We need fewer fluent Esperantists propagating off-topic posts in English and not just moving them to the Esperanto forums; something totally in their power to do, simply by virtue of doing it.

Oh, and on the subject of reform proposals, I'd suggest that we totally allow conversations regarding reform proposals. They simply have to follow one easy rule.

They have to be posted in FLAWLESS Esperanto.

If it isn't flawless, it should be deleted without correction.

I think that's the only subject that rule should apply to. Anything else, write sloperanto to your hearts content. But reform proposals, I think, require some obvious credentials that, if lacking, deserve the boot. If you can't write perfect Esperanto, you've got no business reforming it.

RiotNrrd:
English should not occupy a special place here, and the rules should not be different for it than for any other language. It is not the international language on this site (or, if it is, it shouldn't be treated as such). That role should be reserved for Esperanto.

The problem with this argument is that nobody is actually proposing that English be given a special status - I think sudanglo etc. also want to allow Esperanto for example in the Russian-language board for people who can understand but not write in Russian.

Personally, I’m neutral on this topic.

Mia propono estas, ke ni nun provu skribi Esperante en la anglalingva forumo (kaj en aliaj nacilingvaj fadenoj). Kial ni ĉiuj entute uzas la anglan en tiu ĉi fadeno? Rigardu nur, kiu partoprenas en tiu ĉi diskuto - preskaŭ ĉiuj ja scipovas tre bone skribi en Esperanto!

Verdire, mi ne vere komprenas, kiel tiaj plurlingvaj fadenoj fakte funkcius en la realo. Mi suspektas, ke plej verŝajne ili ne funkcius tre bone, sed kiu scias?! Ni nun provu, kaj tiam Sudanglo finfine estos kontenta ĉi-teme.

Mi ne tute komprenas, kial necesas permesi Esperanton en la nacilingvaj forumoj, ĉar tiuj forumoj estas ĉefe por komencantoj, kiuj ankoraŭ ne kapablas partopreni en la Esperantlingva forumo. Estus tre konfuze al tiuj komencantoj se multaj Esperantlingvaj mesaĝoj subite ekaperus en la nacilingvaj forumoj! Do tiam, ĉu ni ne iom maltrafus la ĉefan celon de la nacilingvaj forumoj?!

Jes, iuj diras, ke aliaj uzantoj povus traduki mesaĝojn de tiuj kiuj skribus Esperante, sed ĉu tiel vere okazus?! Mi dubas, precipe se temus pri longaj mesaĝoj kiel jen mia nuna mesaĝo!

Kaj iuj homoj povus eble ĉiam preferi skribi Esperante en la nacilingvaj forumoj, eĉ se ili fakte tute bone scipovas skribi en la koncernaj naciaj lingvoj. Tio povus esti pro pigreco, pro emo, pro diversaj kialoj. Ĉu tio estus justa al komencantoj?! Estus malfacile pruvi la verajn motivojn, kial iu skribas ĉiam nur Esperante en nacilingva forumo. Plej verŝajne, komencantoj simple ignorus longajn Esperantlingvajn mesaĝojn en nacilingvaj forumoj, ĉar tiuj mesaĝoj aspektus al ili tiel komplikaj, kiel hispanlingvaj mesaĝoj en Esperantlingva fadeno aspektus al homoj kiuj ne konas la hispanan!

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Jen Guglo-traduko de la ĉi-supra:

My proposal is that we should now try to write in Esperanto on the internet forum (and in other national languages ​​threads). Why do we all total use English in this thread? Look only, which participates in this discussion - almost all do know very well write in English!

To tell the truth, I do not really understand how such multilingual threads actually work in practice. I suspect that most likely they would not work very well, but who knows?! We now try, and then Sudanglo finally be happy in this teme.

I do not quite understand, why need to enable Esperanto in some forums, because these forums are mainly for beginners who are not yet able to participate in the Esperanto forum. It would be very confused to those beginners if many Esperanto messages suddenly ekaperus in some forums! So then, do we not rather miss the main target of the national language forums?!

Yes, some say, that other users could translate messages from those who write in Esperanto, but if so it really happen?! I doubt, especially if it were long messages as that is my current message!

And some people could possibly always prefer to write in Esperanto in some forums, even if they are actually quite good at writing in these other languages​​. This may be due to laziness, because of bias, due to various reasons. Is this it would be fair to beginners?! It would be difficult to prove the actual reasons why someone writes always only Esperante in vernacular forum. Most likely, beginners simply ignore long Esperanto-language messages in some forums, because these messages look to them as complicated as hispanlingvaj messages in Esperanto thread look at people who do not know Spanish!

Min daŭre ĝenas, ke tiu ĉi diskuto okazas ĉi tie en la anglalingva forumo. Nia sola administranto ial preferas partopreni en la anglalingva forumo, kaj pro tio ŝi mispaŝe starigis la fadenon en tiu ĉi anglalingva forumo. En kia maniero apartenas tia temo al nacilingva forumo?! Tiu ĉi forumo devas esti nur por lingvaj demandoj de komencantoj. Bedaŭrinde, pro inercio ĉiuj nun preferas daŭrigi la diskuton ĉi tie, kaj ne en la Esperantlingva forumo.

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Guglo-traduko:

I continue to bother, that this discussion is happening here in the English forum. Our unique administrator for some reason prefer to participate in the English-speaking forum, and since she mispaŝe put the thread in this English forum. In what way belongs so subject to a vernacular forum?! This forum should be only for language issues of beginners. Unfortunately, due to inertia all now prefer to continue the discussion here, and not in the Esperanto forum.

So, they can understand English, but not speak it? Let them read the English posts, but communicate using our beautiful, simple language (ie Esperanto). By doing this, we aren't encouraging them to use English at all, we're encouraging them to see that their struggle with the unnecessarily complicated English, is a needless struggle, we're encouraging them to notice that Esperanto is the tool they are seeking.

Absolutely, Eldanar.

There is something totally pathetic about banning contributions in Esperanto within the English Language Forum by those who can read but not successfully write in English (a common state of affairs - let's be realistic).

Worst of all, it suggests that Esperanto is not fit for purpose - far too difficult for a nov-bakito to understand.

The only plausible explanation for opposition to this permission seems to me that there are some who use the English Forum as a playground and are far too lazy to make the minimal effort required to understand a written text in Esperanto.

This disparity between passive comprehension and active compositional ability exists for all languages including Esperanto. So it is reasonable to have national language forums in which beginners may contribute/initiate threads using their own language. And of course there are language-specific translation problems (how do you say X in Esperanto, which is correct for X in Esperanto) which would be out of place in an Esperanto-only Forum.

(By the way there was a recent redirect in the English language Forum to a thread in the Lithuanian Forum (or maybe Finnish I wouldn't know) that was entirely in Esperanto! I was happy to be able to say my piece without the burden of translating it into Finnish/Lithuanian whatever).

Chainy:I continue to bother, that this discussion is happening here in the English forum. Our unique administrator for some reason prefer to participate in the English-speaking forum, and since she mispaŝe put the thread in this English forum. In what way belongs so subject to a vernacular forum?! This forum should be only for language issues of beginners. Unfortunately, due to inertia all now prefer to continue the discussion here, and not in the Esperanto forum.

Kiel mi diris, tio fariĝis temo de konversacio ĉi tie en la anglalingva forumo, ne en la Esperanto-forumo. La komencantoj de ĉi tiu forumo ne povus partopreni en la diskuto se la diskuto estus en la Esperanto-forumo. Mi starigis fadenojn en ambaŭ forumoj, do nun estas loko kie komencantoj povas diskuti tion en lingvo kiun ili komprenas, kaj spertaj Esperantistoj povas diskuti la temon en lingvo kiun *ili* komprenas. Ĉu vi preferus ke komencantoj kiuj ankoraŭ ne parolas esperanton ne havu voĉon en ĉi tiu diskuto, kiu grandparte koncernas ilin, ĉar temas pri 'ilia' forumo en la paĝaro?

Mi invitas vin 'voĉdoni kun la piedoj' kaj daŭrigi la konversacion en la Esperanto-forumoj, en la fadeno kiun mi starigis por tiu celo. Vi povas afiŝi ligilon tien (alian ligilon, ĉar Darkweasel jam tion afiŝis)

As I said, it has become a topic of conversation here in the English forum (in several previous threads), not in the Esperanto fourm. The beginners of this forum wouldn't be able to participate in the discussion if the discussion were in the Esperanto forums. I created threads in both forums, so now there is a place where beginners can discuss it in a language they understand, and experienced Esperantists can discuss it in a language *they* understand. Would you rather that beginners who don't speak Esperanto yet not have a voice in this discussion, which concerns them in large measure, because it has to do with 'their' forum on the site?

I invite you to vote with your feet and continue the conversation in the Esperanto forums, in the thread I established for that purpose. You can post a link from here to there (another link, since Darkweasel already gave one)

Chainy:Min daŭre ĝenas, ke tiu ĉi diskuto okazas ĉi tie en la anglalingva forumo.

Mi povas kompreni la kialon, kial ĉi tiu diskuto komenciĝis en la angla forumo, sed rigardante, kiuj efektive partoprenis kaj la tipon de temoj, kiuj estis adresitaj, mi nun volas helpi vin por transformi la fadenon en Esperantan fadenon.

I can understand the reason why this discussion started here in the English forum, but considering who have actually participated and and the type of themes addressed, I now want to assist in transforming the thread into an Esperanto one.

Chainy, It is really quite difficult to know who actually participates in the broadest sense in the nat-lang forums. The number of views may be 100 times the number of different people making the posts - at least with regard to the Eng-lang Forum (and who knows how many of these readers are in fact not English speakers).

I imagine that whenever a beginner posts a nat-lang question about some aspect of Esperanto, the replies are read by, and have value for, a large number of non-contributors.

The fact that the replies to beginners' question are often posted by those who could have replied without difficulty in Esperanto seems entirely fitting. Spertuloj helpas komencantojn.

There is actually a certain sort of beginner's question that can well profit from replies by speakers of other languages - where it is interesting to know what a Russian thinks or the opinion of a Japanese speaker.

No good saying to the beginner post your question in an Esperanto forum when he might not be able to formulate it yet in E.

Esperanto learners are largely adults, they may naturally have interesting questions beyond their written competence in Esperanto.