Do Erinja is our only administrator, or if she has Aids

Well done Google translate! I do hope she hasn't.

I think that the national language forums should be limited to each one's national language. They are for the benefit of beginners, who do not need to face big blocks of incomprehensible text in a language they don't yet understand.

However, I see no reason not to create a mixed language area, as an experiment. Somewhere people can post in any language they want. A total free-for-all.

Initially I think it would get a lot of traffic.

Six months from opening, I would expect the place to be a ghost town. Mixed language threads are a pain in the rear to follow.

I'm happy to be wrong, though.

sudanglo:Oh dear the red pencil again!. I have just noticed that Ruĝdoma has had his message deleted.

Jes, tio ankaŭ iom surprizis min, ke Erinja tiel baldaŭ decidis forigi la mesaĝon. Precipe ĉar antaŭe Ruĝdoma ja donis tradukon al alia komento post peto.

Ene de la nuna forum-sistemo de Lernu, se administranto tiel faras, la mesaĝo ŝajne estas perdita por ĉiam. Simple estas bonŝance, ke Guglo-Reader (enreta aplikaĵo por RSS-fluoj) konservas mesaĝojn (almenaŭ dum kelke da tempo) en ilia origina stato. Tiel mi savis la mesaĝon de Ruĝdoma.

Se ni decidos, ke tiaj Esperantlingvaj mesaĝoj devas ĉiam havi nacilingvan tradukon en nacilingvaj forumoj, tiam ni devas klarigi en la regularo, ke uzuloj havos tempodaŭron de, ekzemple, unu tago dum kiu ili devas fari tradukon. Se ili tion ne faras dum tiu tempodaŭro, tiam administranto rajtas forigi la mesaĝon. Necesas klarigi tian tempodaŭron, por doni al uzuloj justan ŝancon doni tradukon. En la nuna sistemo, estas tute hazarde, kiam tiaj forigoj de mesaĝoj okazas, kio certe ne estas bona agmaniero.

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Guglo-traduko:

Yes, it is also a bit surprised that Erinja so soon decided to delete the message. Especially because before Ruĝdoma have given a translation to another comment after the request.

Within the current forum system Learn, if an administrator so doing, the message seems to be lost forever. Simply is fortunate that Google-Reader (online application for RSS feeds) retains messages (at least for some time) in their original state. So I saved the message of Ruĝdoma.

If we decide that such Esperanto messages must always have a fun translation in some forums, then we have to explain in the manner that users will have duration of, for example, one day while they have to do the translation. If they did not do during that period of time, then an administrator can delete the message. Necessary to explain such a duration, in order to give users a fair opportunity to give a translation. In the current system, it is quite by accident, when such deletions of messages takes place, which certainly is not a good approach.

Chainy:It seems to me that this exclusion was a little too early, because pasintfoje when Ruĝdoma received a warning message is submitted only in English in this thread, he had finally given translation, so you may need only a little hope...

I'm not the only administrator who removes messages, but I removed this one, since I generally take care of the English forum.

In this case, Ruĝdoma was already warned once, within the same day, even. If a six hour time difference between a warning and another message disobeying the rules is too long a time for him to remember what the rule is, then I am sorry for his poor memory. I honestly can't be bothered to go back constantly and see if someone has edited their message in response to a warning, so if the user does the same thing again only six hours after the warning, excuse me for thinking it looks rather intentional.

sudanglo:Does it occur to no-one that Ruĝdoma being from Finland may NOT be able to provide a translation of his message in English, but maybe his post (I presume in Esperanto) was a valuable contribution to the thread.

That's touchingly charitable of you, sudanglo, but in fact Rugxadomo speaks (or at least writes) excellent nearly native-sounding English, so any Esperanto-only posts in the English forum are clearly not a result of lack of English skills.

Rugxadomo can, of course, feel free to post in Esperanto in this forum, if his post includes an English translation. Or if he wishes to post in Esperanto with no English, then he can go to our sister thread in the Esperanto forum.

Chainy:If we decide that such Esperanto messages must always have a fun translation in some forums, then we have to explain in the manner that users will have duration of, for example, one day while they have to do the translation.

Yeah, I don't really see that happening. Since it's quite clear what the rules are (and in fact, it's written in the terms of service that everyone theoretically agrees to when they join the site), admins have the express right to delete any message that disobeys those rules. I generally give a warning as a courtesy but if it looks like someone is disregarding the warnings, then my preference is just to delete it. Maybe people will be more careful if their posts start to disappear. Especially if they have been warned about the same thing only 6 hours ago. Giving some set time frame adds unnecessary administrative burden.

It's pretty simple, actually. You follow the rules and your posts don't get deleted. No need for complicated grace periods, translation systems between users, etc.

erinja:That's touchingly charitable of you, sudanglo,

Estas memevidente, ke Sudanglo fakte celis paroli pri la ĝenerala principo.

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Is memevidente that Sudanglo actually meant to talk about the general principle.

erinja:Yeah, I don't really see that happening. Since it's quite clear what the rules are (and in fact, it's written in the terms of service that everyone theoretically agrees to when they join the site), admins have the express right to delete any message that disobeys those rules. I generally give a warning as a courtesy but if it looks like someone is disregarding the warnings, then my preference is just to delete it. Maybe people will be more careful if their posts start to disappear. Especially if they have been warned about the same thing only 6 hours ago. Giving some set time frame adds unnecessary administrative burden.

Bone, estis nura ideo.

Ĉiuokaze, povus esti utile, se la Lernu-sistemo ĉiam havus sav-kopion de la mesaĝoj por gardi kontraŭ eventuala mispaŝo de administranto. Eĉ vi, nia bonega administranto, ja povas erari de tempo al tempo.

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Well, it was just an idea.

In any case, it could be useful, if the Learn-system always would rescue a copy of the messages to guard against a possible false step by administrator. Even you, our excellent administrator, indeed can go wrong from time to time.

Forigite

Hyperboreus:I don't understand this rule and why it is enforced. Is this "in national forum only national languages"-rule inforced because it is a rule? A rule (and laws, and ToS (nice buzz word) etc) should serve a purpose otherwise they are but empty shells.

Here, I'll just copy and paste it from earlier in this thread:

RiotNrrd:... The national language forums are not mixed language forums.

They aren't mixed language forums because it is expected that complete beginners likely only speak one language. Beginners who are immediately confronted by a lot of gobbledy-gook that they can't understand are likely to get intimidated, go somewhere else, and not come back. The national language forums should be places where beginners are not intimidated by a lot of gobbledy-gook they can't understand.

Sure, hopefully one day they will understand it. However, that won't be accomplished by dumping it all over their heads on day one.

In a later post, I wrote (essentially covering the same ground, slightly less colorfully):

RiotNrrd:I think that the national language forums should be limited to each one's national language. They are for the benefit of beginners, who do not need to face big blocks of incomprehensible text in a language they don't yet understand.

My understanding is that that is a main reason why the rule is enforced today.

It is my own personal opinion that this rule is entirely sensible, based on my own experience with forums/newsgroups when I myself was just getting started.

Rugxdoma:Message deleted - this is the English forum, so all messages should be accompanied by an English translation

Later edit:
I am sorry. It was not my intention to break the rules. I just mixed up the two foras on the same topic. I intended to post it on the Esperanto forum. I will put it there now.
Ruĝdoma

ŭups, ĉu eraro de la administranto? Mi mem partoprenas en la Esperantlingva kaj ankaŭ la anglalingva forumoj, kaj estas ja facile forgesi en kiu forumo oni fakte skribas. Ofte mi sendas mesaĝon en malgŭsta lingvo, kaj nur iom poste rimarkas tion...

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ŭups, whether an error of the administrator? I myself participate in Esperanto and English-language forums, and it is indeed easy to forget which forum you actually write. Often, I have sent a message in the wrong language, and only a little later realize that ...

Pssst, don't tell anybody that in a forum (on an Esperanto learning site) posts are deleted because they are in Esperanto. This would be quite a laugh.

Yes HB it has its funny side. But it is also tragic.

It sends the message that the Esperantists have lost faith in Esperanto - as does the use of Google Translate after each message in Esperanto.

Surely even the Idists and the Interlinguists and the Volapukists would not (assuming that there are enough of them to justify having a forum) be so ready to make themselves look ridiculous.

Incidentally, translating the paragraph above into Esperanto with Google Translate produces an almost human like intelligence with the handling of the would not (....) be. (But GT seems somewhat cavalier in other places with the grammar).

Certe eĉ la Idists kaj la Interlinguists kaj la Volapukists ne (supozante ke estas sufiĉe da ilin por pravigi havi forumon) estus tiel preta por fari sin rigardas ridinda.